Hannes Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 @Hannes just wanted to add my praise to the others - looking beautiful. Got bored with trying to align cameras so I started looking at the engine. There is another Motor Sport article that someone pointed me at from Jan 51. It is by WB but seems to be a translation of the article Roy posted from Motor Italia earlier. Has the sideview blueprint and a cross-section of the funky 2-stroke from the 805. Link is here. Clicking on the page image gives the text. http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/page/january-1951/14 Regards Nick 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Dear Nick , that´s an interesting article ! If the Roots blower was driven by the right crankshaft , the kit´s solution seems to be OK .If you consider the hole for the crank is situated a bit on the left side (seen from the driver´s view ) we can imagine ,how much the engine must have been delayed to the left side .The cam fairing of the right bonnet does not make any sense imho ! remember , this topic was already discussed earlier . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Hannes - I've wondered for a while why they would bother with a cam fairing on he right bonnet. One of the things we will never know I suppose. ATB Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 It´s just my own theory but maybe the frame needed to be opened at it´s front , because a wider radiator case was required. On drawing 1 the hole for the crank is situated exactly in the middle and maybe with a smaller radiator case this cam fairing made sense . To get a better balance with the driver´s weight on the right side and the engine´s weight a bit on the left side the whole story could make sense. Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Hannes said: Dear Sam ,this fairing was hand-made by using the old Protar fairing by shortening it at it´s left side and adding strips to it´s right side for elongation ,The rest was simple sculptural work.Same goes for the changing of the surrounding. It took some time because of the limited amount of informations. Viele liebe Grüsse ! Hannes @Hannes simple "sculptural work"? God bless the day you decided to participate to the group my friend. Your immense talent ... truly amazing. I need to take lesson in sculpture from you. Apologies for thinking it was casted ! Good night Mr Rodin Michaelangelo, Viel Grusse von Lebanon, ich bin im transit 4 tagen noch. Sam Edited January 16, 2017 by sharknose156 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Dear Sam ,these works are not too difficult , but they need to be very exact due the scale. That´s the main problem , because it ´s very time-consuming.. But with more informations we now have it should be easier to build convincing fairings . And of course I´m willing to give advices regarding techniques . But there are no great secrets .Use files ,sharp blades and filler and avoid sanding too often! I guess , a lot of members would be shocked if they would see me working ! Styrene strips glue , filler , a lot of dust by carving , filing and sanding,liquid filler from time to time , , that´s not very esthetical ! But it works .It also should be easier now to make fairings out of metal. Propeller seems to be an expert for these kind of works , so maybe he can give some advices. Many greetingts to Lebanon ! Hannes 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, Hannes said: Please don´t forget to change the opening for the steering crossbeam ! (photo 1 , look through the spokes of the front wheel !)It´s arched , not pointed ! Ok Hannes, I now see... I made an enlargement of what you meant. Indeed, this slot must be rounded. Thanks for this detail, and congrats for your very neat bodywork. I suppose you will get a sharper Bordino tail, and decrease the overhanging of the body on the frame at the tail's level, a bit too long IMHO. Thank you for your excellent drawing about the relation body/ bonnets/ frame. I am still quite tired, I hope I will succeed working a bit on my build today. I began working on re-adding the portion of underbody I cut by mistake. The adding should be around 7 - 8 mm, exactly what I had removed... Thank you again for this necessary correction... I will post a topic about that soon... Edited January 17, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Sent by Sebastien, this extract of Dante Giacosa's autobiography book "Forty years of design with Fiat" (published also in french and italian), in which he gives his version of Agnelli's destruction order: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 @Hannes Dear Hannes, Thank you. As soon as i am back home from my trip i will practice some dry runs and simple shapes. However, your talent and experience represent the major part of the success, obviously. increasingly now, i can see the techniques used and needed for scratch work. Between you, and great builders on this forum. The techniques may be clear, but the rest of course is in the execution... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) I was right cutting the body at the cockpit level, much too long, but I was wrong cutting as well the underbody and the frame - at least at this level -, while it seemed logic to do it. Being the first on the front line on this fight for truth has his drawbacks, and it is one more time Hannes who made me notice that mistake. The modeler must remind very humble, admit his mistakes and be able to correct them. Here, I first used a 0,82 mm thick Evergreen plastic card, 15 mm width, cemented in 2 steps on the either side of the inside underbody, with polystyrene cement. After that, I cemented on it, by the outside, another piece of the same Evergreen... The same procedure will allow to recreate the frame vertical part. Filling and sanding will make the joints disappear... Edited January 17, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Dear Olivier , I´m happy to see your corrections ! And of course a sharper Bordino tip will be made at my own bodywork later on. I want to ask you for a favour : Could you please tell me the dimensions of your widened radiator case? Because this will be my next project I have to gather informations ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Dear Hannes, I have not yet been working on my radiator case (it should be my next step but so many corrections to do before...). That said, if you remember, I did not want to redo completely my grille, so I just cut it in height, but it will be around 3 or 4 mm too narrow, so, it will be a compromise. And this will be probably consequently true for my radiator case too. That's why I don't think you should determine your radiator case on mine... I have a question about your bodywork. On the comparison photo with the kit's one, your bodywork seems as long as the kit's one. Are you gonna cut the tail? Have you ever decreased the cockpit portion in lenght? I haven't got another kit's bodywork (pity...) to make a comparison photo, but if I had one, my comparison photo would show, I think, more differences with the Italeri bodywork lenght and proportions. Edited January 17, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) In the article published in l'auto italiana, there was this photo. We can suppose our photo 4 was taken from this camera... I would have thought the camera was at a longer distance from the 806... In the same time, this reference to photo 4 is a wink to Roy, who, pity, left our thread, on which he worked so hard to get incredible findings and to summarize everything on the first page. I miss him, as all of you I suppose, even if he could be sometimes not very diplomatic, as when I mentioned J.M Villalba a bit too insistantly to his taste, or when he made comments on my rear louvres, or when I drew fast conclusions on comparisons photos... Edited January 17, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Dear Olivier . my body is about 1 cm shorter compared with the kit´s one. (ca 6-7 mm at it´s front and about 3 mm at the tail´s end ) I´ll wait with further shortening of the tail´s end . That´s how I work .I don´t finish a stage completely or start with detailling , before the main connections are established. In our case it means : The altered bodywork on an altered frame with an altered radiator case and altered bonnets must become a unity ( adaption works )The exhaust pipes need to be involved ,same goes for the parts under the pipes. Next steps are the axes with their leaf springs and dampeners. There´s a lot to do ! The bottom panel must get changed too.The whole steering system must get heavily altered.Maybe some fixing points need to be changed. Scratchbuilds of the radiator tank grille and seat will follow . If all these works are done ,I can start to build the car .( painting , detailling , engine and so on ) This was my plan , when entering the gangshow thread :At this time your own construction already was highly advanced and you already did a lot of detailling.And of course you trusted the kit at this time. But that´s history now and if I see your great work I´m convinced , your car will be a full success ! Many greetings ! Hannes 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Dear Sam, I want to thank you again for having very quickly taken the decision to pay yourself the 200$ to Paul Kierstein. I hope we will soon have new docs useful historically or for building the kits. Of course, if the case occurs again (which would mean that Paul would have still a lot of stuff for us), we could (except you) share the next fees. Sébastien is Ok to take his part too. We are not yet here. Let's wait patiently Paul's next sendings... All the best Olivier P.S: thanks Hannes for you explanation on your methodology, very careful (more than mine ) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 @Olivier de St Raph Dear Olivier, 1. Am waiting for Paul's indications for payment via paypal. Lesleyanne has all she needs from me. You will receive it the same time as me by email i suppose or 'we transfer' or 'dropbox'. 2. On the post with Giacosa's extract; i have to give my hat to you and your persistence...but that is what makes you such a strong scale model builder But from what i know on the subject is this: Sen. Agnelli was a strategist of the first order. Not an impulsive emotional person. His decisions with regard to Fiat were always part of a specific strategy and taking into consideration the image and interests of Fiat. He would not destroy all the cars because Bordino passed away. This was an important decision linked to the withdrawal from racing. The withdrawal happened for several reasons whohc we don t need to develop here. The destruction was so as not to leave some technological advances which may fall in the wrong hands etc. Sen. Agnelli was also very sensitive to the public's sympathy for Fiat, and so i think the death of Bordino, when the public must have been 'emotional' - just like all of us when we hear of the death of a racing driver we like, was an appropriate timing and pretext to announce the decision. If he had announced the withdrawal out of nowhere he would have seemed like a fool. Also, personally as an avid reader of history, i don t believe all what is written, specially when it is from one single source. 3. IMHO it is not a question of "diplomacy", you are being courteous as usual and diplomatic. It is a question of basic respect for others and of being superior and condescendent in tone to several of us. Specially elder persons. 4. I really like your very clean technical work to re-insert the cut off 7.5 mm in two parts, intra and extrados. Between you and dear Hannes, you are really showing us how to do this amazing racing car. 5. Very well spotted on the camera. If you notice underneath this photographer, there is another person appearing to take a photo as well. This was probably where the journalists could see the start. cheers Sam 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 Great progress Hannes and Olivier! I like the precise work on the louvres, they look just about correct now. And Hannes' body seems to be as smooth as polished metal (please don't get any wrong ideas Hannes ). Olivier the last photo you posted is a different version of Photo 23 that I posted before. The other one seems to have slightly higher quality (as regards the Fiat) so I won't replace it in the opening post. As it shows the whole scene I will add it as Photo 23C though. I am enjoying all this progress, seeing the Fiat come to life! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Dear Roy , yes our resurrection project shows the first signs of life ! I hope other members will follow soon ! And dear Olivier a suggestion : You now will need to add 2 plates to the bodywork´s beginning . If you fix that support frame first ( I showed it in that scetch above ) it might be easier for you to fix these plates ! Many greetings ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Olivier - Love the fact that we have a photo of the photographer! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Dear Olivier ,If you are interested in my research regarding the radiator case´s dimensions : The kit´s case should get shortened below the mounting points 2 mm ( from 5,6 cm to 5,4 mm)and widened 8 ( !!! ) mm ( from 3,1 to 3,9 mm ). If I would have made a statement like this in the old gangshow thread , everybody would have considered me as completely crazy ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 6 hours ago, sharknose156 said: Also, personally as an avid reader of history, i don t believe all what is written, specially when it is from one single source. I agree with you, Sam, and that's why I hope we will get a certainty on that point. It is not possible, considering the several months between the race (4/9/27) and the Bordino death (15/4/28) that no article mentions Agnelli's order! If an article, dated fe of october 1927, mentions that order and the destruction, we will know Giacosa version was not right. On the other hand, if the first article who mentions the order is dated of 04 or 05/28, it will mean that Giacosa version was right... 6 hours ago, sharknose156 said: 3. IMHO it is not a question of "diplomacy", you are being courteous as usual and diplomatic. It is a question of basic respect for others and of being superior and condescendent in tone to several of us. Specially elder persons. I don't want to come in such a debate. I know you had words with Roy about the Torino travel through others... As all the members of the team, I don't have to judge and say who was right, who was wrong. You both have a lot of temper (that may be a great quality) but, in that circumstance, these words had this consequence that Roy left the thread. I very deeply regret that, and I wish everyone on this thread, will try to be respectful to others. If myself, I have without noticing, hurt anyone of you, I apologise. The modelers have ego, inevitably. Too much, certainly... Wisdom is to shut up this ego. Nothing would please me more than Roy and you get reconciled. We are adults, aren't we? and we need everyone in this quest... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 4 hours ago, Hannes said: And dear Olivier a suggestion : You now will need to add 2 plates to the bodywork´s beginning . If you fix that support frame first ( I showed it in that scetch above ) it might be easier for you to fix these plates ! Sorry Hannes, but one more time, I don't understand what you mean. What plates? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I agree with Olivier , please let us be peaceful ! It`s a wonderful hobby and not a political issue for instance.And we all have the same goal to revive a beautiful car ! Being the oldest guy in this thread I hope you will listen if I tell you . Life is too short and too precious to get involved in senseless fightings.Let`s go on together with this wonderful project ! Many greetings! Hannes 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Dear Olivier ,now you elongated the frame .In my opinion there should be gaps now at the frontal beginning of your body , or not? If you want to close these gaps you need to add material. This supporting frame should help to fix these plastic plates . Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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