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Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds


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8 hours ago, PROPELLER said:

After my congratulations for the quality of this topic, my modest contribution...

No paint inside engine hoods! Paint is weight!

Welcome Dan!

I did not have time up to now to go and see your works, but, after Hannes, VT and CC comments, I understand we have in you a very good addition! In what part of France do you live?

Well, after all points of view about the inside bonnets, I think my decision is taken (unless we discover we were wrong...), mine will be bare metal. Now, the question is: and the cockpit inside? bare metal too? I think so, and you? the weight argument may also be considered, but also the fact that this car had so many problems, and was just ready for that race, all that pushes me to say the mechanics were not focused on the inside paint!

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8 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

Dear Olivier  there is a thick book on the history of Fiat and the Agnellis starting from the creation of FIAT at the end of the 19th century by a few people, Agnelli included, and till about the 70's.

 

it includes the glorious days before the second WW when Fiat built its factory of 5 stories and a test track on the roof !!

 

i know i have this book somewhere, but if you want to know what happened on the destruction, i would look at that book as the most reliable source and not various newspaper articles, specially from the chauvinistic italian press, whom we know meddles with the truth in Italian sports till today.

Of course, Sam, if you could find this book you have and see what they say about that, it would be great (hoping we won't have a fourth version!:D).

 

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Hello Dan,

 

Incredible work on the Talbot Lago 1/8.

 

i left you a small message there.  

 

For the 806 i am strongly inclined to try the same method you used to reproduce the back of the 806, using balsa wood, and the Paul Buzik technique.   Need to practice a dry run.

 

The technique you showed on designing squares and cutting the profile master is great !   Thank you for that !

 

NickD in our group is masterly at 3D computer design, and combining both techniques could allow us to scratch build almost any car and in any scale.  ... of course easier said than done... 

 

but we have to be optimistic and finish what we start - always.

 

kind regards

Sam 

Edited by sharknose156
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45 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Of course, Sam, if you could find this book you have and see what they say about that, it would be great (hoping we won't have a fourth version!:D).

 

 

dear Olivier,   i read it long ago, i will look for it. Yes, i hope no fourth version :)

 

however, IMHO i think the version which says the Senator ordered the destruction right after the race is the most plausible one.

 

Agnelli was very angry about the continuous defection of many engineers to Alfa Romeo, winning more and more races, and he wanted to stop all Fiat racing even before the Monza race 1927, but the racing team pleaded and so he allowed for one race.  The one that is keeping us awake at night. 

 

Bordino's death came after and was not the reason for the destruction and withdrawal of Fiat from racing. It just coincided with all the brouhaha of the withdrawal after more than 30 years of prestige in winning.

 

Agnelli took full control of Fiat and wanted to focus Fiat on its commercial success of the same period, cars and trucks and planes ordered by the thousands, and expanded the Turino factory to 5 floors with a test circuit on the roof. 

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2 hours ago, PROPELLER said:

Thanks Olivier!

I'm living around the Bassin d'Arcachon, near the sea, but not the same of you...

Well, inside a Talbot...

 

94105049TalbotLagoT26CDV10GCPi01.jpg

 

Bare inside too, of course!

 

 

Very nice photo, Dan! And thank you for your reply about the inside, that confirms me in my choice. I should be soon ready to post a photo of my body ready (I am still working on filling/ sanding after all my "surgeries", and I have to redo the rear louvres).

About louvres, a small tuto on how I opened the kit's bonnets ones, for the ones who want to work on plastic (you would probably prefer metal...). I began to see your amazing work, but I must sign in to go on (the diaporama stopped at the 5th page). I'll do that, of course. 

My daughter's boyfriend parents live at Bordeaux, and I think they have a sailboat near the place where you live.

 

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Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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1 hour ago, sharknose156 said:

 

dear Olivier,   i read it long ago, i will look for it. Yes, i hope no fourth version :)

 

however, IMHO i think the version which says the Senator ordered the destruction right after the race is the most plausible one.

 

Agnelli was very angry about the continuous defection of many engineers to Alfa Romeo, winning more and more races, and he wanted to stop all Fiat racing even before the Monza race 1927, but the racing team pleaded and so he allowed for one race.  The one that is keeping us awake at night. 

 

Bordino's death came after and was not the reason for the destruction and withdrawal of Fiat from racing. It just coincided with all the brouhaha of the withdrawal after more than 30 years of prestige in winning.

 

Agnelli took full control of Fiat and wanted to focus Fiat on its commercial success of the same period, cars and trucks and planes ordered by the thousands, and expanded the Turino factory to 5 floors with a test circuit on the roof. 

Dear Sam,

your assumption (destruction just after the race) is maybe right, but maybe wrong too. It is not anyway Sebastien Faures - a specialist of Fiat racing cars, as you know - one. For him, if the decision of withdrawal was taken at the end of september - so not just after the race (what Massimino confirms in his interview) -, the decision of destruction was taken after Bordino's death, several months later. It is the Dante Giacosa version (Dante Giacosa is the father of the 500 Fiat, a very important Fiat engineer, go and see on Wiki).

More, I must - sorry- bring some little precisions about the "brain drain": they all not have been working for Alfa Romeo, the excellent Vincenzo Bertarione went to STD (Sunbeam- Talbot- Darracq). Regarding Cappa, I will ask Sebastien. If I know he left Fiat, I don't remember what he did then. 

Another little correction: Alfa Romeo had indeed become a big rival (and had won the ACF Lyon G.P in 1924 with the P2), but, other race cars, the Delage, with another great pilot, Robert Benoist, the Bugatti T 35, the Talbot G.P were very good rivals too...

 

All the best

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@Olivier de St Raph

 

Dear Olivier,

 

i understand your reasoning. Well we shall see. it does not matter who is right or wrong, as long as we find out what happened and validate it.

 

With all due respect to Mr Faures whom i am sure studied the history better than me. So he probably he is right.

 

On the Agnellis, i just go back to some private discussions with people / close friends involved in covering or in driving F1 in the 50's and 60's ( including for Ferrari ) and others still alive to this date. It does not cover the 20's :)

 

 

Yes the brain drain was not all going to Alfa Romeo, but there was a personal animosity between Agnelli and Nicola Romeo ( who took control of Alfa ) competing on juicy government contracts and using racing as a prestige platform at the time. So coming in behind Alfa was a big loss of face. So better not race at all.

 

You are totally right of course to say other marques were also winning big time, and Fiat was no longer the most successful continental winner. The British were also very strong. 

 

Agnelli was known to be a visionaire and racing was out of his immediate vision for Fiat at that period because he knew competition was getting stiff and he wanted to focus on the new wind of power starting to blow ( the facists ) and getting arms, cars, trucks and plane deals from the new italian forces.

 

One thing i am sure, there was no private sentimentality on the death of Bordino, perhaps for public consumption, but nothing to warrant a total destruction of Fiat racing.

 

 

 

Edited by sharknose156
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On 13/01/2017 at 9:36 PM, NickD said:

Olivier, amazing how effective patience can be those louvres look great but must have driven you mad with boredom

Dear Nick,

I do the same as Juan Manuel Villalba, my master and friend, when I have a long and fastidious work, like this one (much less long and fastidious than respoking the 4 wheels or the grille, fe), I listen to my favourite music, for example Diana Krall, Leonard Cohen, Sade, Melody Gardot or Stacey Kent etc. Something cool that helps me to keep patience! ;)

 

And now, my friends, I would like to come-back on a very important debate, the body color. Why? just because I think there is an important detail in the docs sent by the Rev's about that, that has not escaped to me, even if I just mention it now (so many things happened these last days...).

As you know (if you remember), up to now, in the lack of certainty (even if Sam's arguments were ever strong about that), my intention was still to paint my body a kind of Bordeaux red lightened recently by adding a bit X7 Tamyia (bright red) to my initial Humbrol 20 Crimson. I said I loved the body color on the Italeri box-art and, until I was sure it was wrong, I would inspire myself of that for my body.

Well, so, what is this important detail I mentioned above?

It is contained in the article "L'auto italiana" of the 15/09/1927 (I will have another comment about this article when I will discuss in a second time another point that is dear to my heart...), in the 2nd of the 2 abstracts I translate here for you:

 

1st abstract: 

lbDjRl.png

... the Bordino timings are much better than Benoist ones on the first 50 kms of the Europe G.P, they sell the bear's skin before killing it, but may be forgiven because their enthousiasm is dictated by the admiration for the feats of the little red Bordino speedster, on which stand anxiously all italian people hopes, and the extreme interest of all the car world in anticipation of the very next Brooklands G.P, that should allow to see the meeting Delage- Bugatti- Fiat.

 

2nd abstract:

 

mArx4y.png

 

Between the 1rst and the 2nd serie of the Milano G.P, Bordino made a few fast trial runs, with his bright red Fiat, imitated by other pilots....

Here we are: for the first time, we have an indication of the Bordino's 806 red color on that day. Reverso suggests for "fiammante rosso" bright red, incandescent red, flame red, that can't be, in my mind, the one of the box-art, a Bordeaux, grenat, one, even a bit lightened, turning into cherry red. So, for me, decision is taken, I will modify my 806 body color, in the direction of Sam opinion.

 

The followers of this thread know that another question important for me - humanely and historically speaking - was the context and the date in which Agnelli ordered the destruction of all the race cars. I am nearly sure that this decision was not taken just after the race. L'auto italiana is dated 15/09, the race was on the 4/09, and if the decision had been taken just after, the article would tell that, instead of expecting impatiently, as we can read in the 1st abstract, the next opposition at Brooklands G.P.

Another argument is the Massimino interview, in which he explains he worked night and day on the car after the race to solve the front axle issues.

Now, let's try to solve the apparent contradiction between Massimino and Giacosa versions (both can be considered as very reliable people and were very well placed to know the truth):

 

zXKMFO.png

 

in his interview, Massimino says: "it is my fault if Agnelli ordered the destruction of all the sports goods", what I maybe interpreted a bit fast as the destruction of race cars, while he meant just maybe all the material but not the cars themselves.

But, when Bordino (the Fiat love child, read SF book...) died on the 15/04/28, Agnelli was so touched - even him had got a heart, and the human nature is complex, as you know - that he took that mad decision, such a decision that, IMHO, you just can take in a tragic, dramatic context... It is precisely SF point of view, and I agree with him on this.

Of course, this needs to be confirmed, and the best way to be sure would be checking in articles published in that period, for example after Bordino's accident. Maybe the Rev's could find that quite easily...

 

 

 

All the best

 

Olivier

 

 

 

 

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@Olivier de St Raph

 

dear Olivier, everyone is free to believe what they want.

 

Sen. Agnelli did not build his empire on impulsive or sentimental actions. The destruction of the racing department was not due to the Bordino death, canceling 30 years of prestigious winning and destroying what was cutting edge technology for the time  - and some of still in vigour many decades after, just for the death of one driver. There were important strategic considerations and he would have not done anything contrary to his interest / Fiat which at the time he was able to control fully.

 

the decision to destroy was taken before the race, and he allowed for the race just because the engineers had pleaded for one last race.

 

but everyone is free to believe what they want.

 

Rev' already gave a list of articles where you may find the correct answer. If it is important, i think it is easy to write to their archives.

 

Am very glad you now agree on the lighter racing Italian color, it was the same as the italian red on the Fiat engined Schneider Trophy planes, which are still exposed today as they were then, in an Italian museum ( i think i provided the link in one of my posts ). Easy to find. 

 

i know your friend SF does not agree, but Alpha Romeo always used a darker shade. There were national racing colors at the time. I remember having a long discussion about this subject with Paul Henry Cahier's father, Bernard Cahier and Olivier Gendebien ( RIP to both,  Olivier was like a mentor to me ).

 

 

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I´m sure , we still will find some documents that gets us closer to the truth . But it´s like always in history , some aspects are hard or impossble to unravel.

Maybe secret conversations by Mussolini and Agnelli were made about preparations regarding a possible war . Some years later Hitler ordered to build the Volkswagen .But the "Volk"never had the opportunity to drive these cars till the end of WW 2 because they  were needed for military purposes.And even if Agnelli had written a book about his life ,you could find a lot of falsifications in it.  Many greetings !  Hannes

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9 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

dear Olivier, everyone is free to believe what they want.

 

Sen. Agnelli did not build his empire on impulsive or sentimental actions. The destruction of the racing department was not due to the Bordino death, canceling 30 years of prestigious winning and destroying what was cutting edge technology for the time  - and some of still in vigour many decades after, just for the death of one driver. There were important strategic considerations and he would have not done anything contrary to his interest / Fiat which at the time he was able to control fully.

 

Of course, Sam, everyone is free! We are just trying to know the historic truth, as we are looking for the body shape and color truth etc.

About Agnelli, I think we all agree to say he was not very concerned - the least we can say - by races aspects, and certainly he had decided - as you say - to stop Fiat participation to G.P from 1928 even before the Milano race (SF - who is not - yet? - my friend but a very good specialist) does not say anything else). But there is IMHO a difference between this withdrawal and the destruction of all race cars - lost for ever - that in my mind (until the evidence of the contrary is brought) must have been taken in a dramatic context. And I wonder why Dante Giacosa - who was not some other man - would have lied with his version? 

Another precision: I don't say Agnelli took that order just because of Bordino's death. Before him, many other Fiat pilots had found such a tragic death, as Biagio Nazzaro, Evasio Lampiano, Enrico Giaccone, Ugo Sivocci, Onesimo Marchisio... Pietro Bordino would have been, kind of, the last straw that broke... Ok, let's leave that point for now, until we find prooves, what I hope.

 

Here is what SF wrote to me yesterday in his last mail (through others), about the blueprints dated in 10/1927 (he was very surprised that Paul -that he knows - could find that doc and the other ones):

"- la formule 1,5 litre allait s'arrêter fin 1927. Donc il est probable (mais je n'en ai pas la preuve) que les dessins correspondent à la version de la 806 qui aurait été engagée au Grand Prix de Grande Bretagne (la mise à jour du dessin a peut-être été faite après celle de la voiture elle-même, pour "régulariser" les plans). En 1928 Fiat se serait retirée de toute façon."

"- the 1,5l formula was about to stop end of 1927. So, it is probable (but I have no proof) that these drawings are the ones of the 806 that would have been engaged to the British G.P (the update of the drawing was maybe done after the car's update, to regulate the drawing with truth). In 1928, Fiat would have retired anyway."

 

About the blueprints, I wonder if the one Paul promised to send are other ones than the ones he ever sent. Now we know our drawing 2 corresponds to an evolution of the 806, it would be amazing to have the drawing of the car made in 1925 or 1926, that has necessary existed, but that was unfindable up to now. Such a discover would be, of course, very extraordinary. 

 

In the same mail, SF regrets it does not seem to exist a good build of the 804 and the 805 (his favourite Fiat race cars). Does someone know if a kit exist, of these cars? 

 

I feel just a little better today (after 5 days ill), I'll try to go on a bit with my build...

 

All the best to all

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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If the drawing 2 corresponds to an evolution of the 806 after the Milano's 1927 GP, it will be rather annoying for our future builds, as four your's, Olivier.

It seems you have made numerous modifications of the shape, some of them based on drawing 2, isn't it ?

Henceforth, how to be sure of the right shape, this one that had the real car during the race ?

 

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No, CC, it won't be necessary, because it will be covered by the leather I will use for the seat upholstery. That's why I leave it like that, unlike all other body parts, including the rear axle arcs - that I still must get thinner - and, of course, the front part of the body, in relation with the bonnets.

 

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Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Dear Thierry , regarding your comments about drawing 2 that´s why I was warning some weeks ago to be cautious when cutting the frame .I could not prove it by measuring ,but my eyesight told me to wait till there´s more proof .Did you notice ,for instance ,that the distance from the bend of the frame (where the hand brake is situated ) till the frontal end of the body ( where this gap starts )is way too long compared to our photos ? That´s why I shortened the whole body at it´s front and did not cut it in the middle like Olivier did : He had to cut the frame too and the mentioned distance is still too long .

Of course  some shortenings or even elongations of the frame will be necessary in the future (besides changing it´s height or delaying some fixing points ), but I will wait with that till I´m sure .At the moment the kit´s frame´s lenght seems to be OK for constructing a covincing model .  Many greetings !  Hannes

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3 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

If the drawing 2 corresponds to an evolution of the 806 after the Milano's 1927 GP, it will be rather annoying for our future builds, as four your's, Olivier.

It seems you have made numerous modifications of the shape, some of them based on drawing 2, isn't it ?

Henceforth, how to be sure of the right shape, this one that had the real car during the race ?

 

Dear CC,

I don't worry at all about that. All the work we did during all these weeks - especially Roy and Nick - showed that this drawing was nearly right, except for the tail, too long, the steering wheel and the up of the grille.

I am sure our drawing 2 modified is at least 95% right.

That said, it would be great to confirm that finding the blueprints of the 806 before the race... But I am afraid they have been destroyed...

Indeed, I would be very surprised if Paul got them, What would be an exceptional finding !

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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2 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Thierry , regarding your comments about drawing 2 that´s why I was warning some weeks ago to be cautious when cutting the frame .I could not prove it by measuring ,but my eyesight told me to wait till there´s more proof .Did you notice ,for instance ,that the distance from the bend of the frame (where the hand brake is situated ) till the frontal end of the body ( where this gap starts )is way too long compared to our photos ? That´s why I shortened the whole body at it´s front and did not cut it in the middle like Olivier did : He had to cut the frame too and the mentioned distance is still too long .

Of course  some shortenings or even elongations of the frame will be necessary in the future (besides changing it´s height or delaying some fixing points ), but I will wait with that till I´m sure .At the moment the kit´s frame´s lenght seems to be OK for constructing a covincing model .  Many greetings !  Hannes

Dear Hannes,

I cut the body at the cockpit level (and so the frame too...) because I was sure this cockpit portion was too long, around 6-7 mm. This was confirmed as with drawing 2, as with the different photos of the car (1, 2, 3, 4 etc.), as well on left than on right side.

And now, I am satisfied of the proportions between this portion, the tail one and the fairing one (that I decreased a bit too, around 1,5 mm).

You made another choice, that of course I totally respect. 

The future (when builds will be over) will say who was closer from truth on that point, but both will definitely be much more than all what has been done up to now.

All the best

 

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Sear Olivier , some weeks ago I decided not to talk about this topic anymore , because noone believed me . Weré not building a version of drawing B , we build the 806 as we can see it on our photos .Why didn´t you measure out this distance I was mentioning in my post  ? Even with only eyesight you can see the distance of the model has nothing to do with reality ! Compare it with the openings of the bottom panel for instance !In your construction they will be much closer to the body´s beginning than they are on the photos ! Just similar isn´t good enough ! Please forgive my rude behaviour ,you know I´m your friend and sometimes it´s important to tell some unpleasant things . And of course I make mistakes too ! In friendship  Hannes

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And of course the cockpit portion is too long ! If you shorten the body at it´s front , you must delay the whole fairing backwards ( like I did ). This has the same effect :The cockpit´s portion will become shorter !  Many greetings!  Hannes

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