sharknose156 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 @NickD Dear Nick your contribution has been extremely valuable. The plans will be sent to you of course. You are part of the aficionados i mentioned to Paul ( see private messaging ) so please do not worry about your contribution for God's sake !! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I agree with Olivier , we need your analytic brain ! (and of course the rest of Roy too ! ) Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 P.S: When I visited the Rev's, I had the occasion to show to a very kind volunteer, Troy Marsh, our thread (I probably ever mentionned that). Troy today sent me the following list of media articles contain information on the Fiat 806/504 and have been published in the public domain across the years: Here is a list of mentions of the Milan Grand Prix from period magazines; perhaps you or your colleagues may have access to these for research: "Le Bulletin del' Automobile" 19 September 1927 issue - - - article title: "Milan (Italy) Grand Prix" 4-9-1927 "Espana Automovil Y Aeronautica" 15 August 1927 issue - - - article title: "Europe Grand Prix Monza Track" page 276 "A. C. Italia" September 1927 issue - - - article title: "Milan Grand Prix" pages 38 > 40 "Motor Italia" September 1927 issue - - - article title: "Europe 5th Grand Prix" "Automobila" 15 September 1927 issue - - - article title: "Europe Grand Prix Monza" pages 28, 29 "ADAC" 23 September 1927 issue - - - article title: " Grand Prix of Milano" page 19 "Automovil Cuba" October 1927 issue - - - article title: "Milan Grand Prix" pages 28 > 30 "Auto Spanish" 1 October 1927 issue - - - article title: "Milan Grand Prix" pages 16 > 22 "Heraldo Deportivo" 5 October 1927 issue - - - article title: "Milan Grand Prix" page 450 The above information is hopefully accurate, it was gleaned from a remarkable and unique resource that was compiled; in period; of automotive mentions, globally. Unfortunately, these titles are currently not known the Revs Institute Library catalogue. Best Regards - Troy Marsh, Revs Institute Volunteer If you read this, Thank you Troy! Afficher la suite de Troy Marsh 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) @Olivier de St Raph What an incredible article you will be able to write ! Imagine if you had decided to spend New Year in Hong Kong or Nantucket or Venlo hahaha and then, you had the glorious idea to visit the museum, and your friend / host arranged for the visit on the 31st !!! What a chain of coincidences i suppose it was your wife's idea to go to Miami ? she may regret it and hate us even more now Edited January 12, 2017 by sharknose156 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Yes, incredible... I even did not know the Rev's! It is my host, my patient who has a villa at St Aygulf, who suggested me that visit, knowing my passion! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 25 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Again Hannes was right (and I was wrong) in the assumption that the drawings were made after the race was finished. I can't find my original post with the two possible theories (before or after the race) but I grew to think that it was definitely before. So now that we know that Hannes was right, we can see -in the drawing- some improvements that the Fiat designers had planned for 1928 racing season: more curved radiator cowl, taller rear end, lower fairing, slightly smaller diameter tyres, round steering wheel. Very surprising for me too, who was wrong too (as usual). Even now, it is difficult for me to admit what seems to be the truth... Why? 1) the 805 had a much longer tail than the 806, and I supposed (as Roy) that Fiat was inspired by the Delage, that had a shorter one. I did not see any reason for Fiat to raise the tail after the race, while they had to resolve more urgent issues, with the engine and the front axle... Briefly, for me, it was not the logic of evolution... 2) the come-back to a classic steering wheel, as on the previous Fiat, and all the other cars, did not seemed to me logic too. But now that I think, when I look at this poor Bordino on photo 9 after the race, with his white wear and face all dirty, maybe he said: " hey guys, your oil screen protection is not efficient! I would prefer a firewall that will prevent me from oil too! (Nick said the engine used 3l of oil/ 100 kms). Ok, all this is just assumptions, Bordino was dirty also because of the bad conditions (rain +++) and I just try to convince myself that, contrarly to what seemed to me logic, these drawings were made after the race. Incredible! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Dear Olivier , as I said a looong time ago ,: I believe the tail was improved for aerodynamical reasons. I dont know , if they had some kind of wind-channels at that time ,but I know , the research for aerodynamics was advanced in the late 20 s . A longer tail also has an stabilizing effect ! ( please dont say that to your dear wife ! sorry ,but sometimes I make bad jokes ! ) Dear Olivier , what a day ! Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Except that, I still wonder if I paint my inside cockpit and bonnets red of let them steel... Notice that the Rev's Protar model made this second choice (at least for the bonnets). Except that, obviously, for us, it is just another wrong version (nice, furthermore, despite some awful details such the huge wires - provided by Protar-). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Ok Hannes, I appreciate your explanation... and humour! Many greetings! Now, I really go to bed (I've been taking Prednisolon (corticoïd) for 3 days to be able to go to work, and if it is good against inflammation, it does not help to sleep... Hope tomorrow, I will feel better... But except that bad cold, today was a good day. I think we made 2 steps forward... What a story! Definitely, how could I tell all that in 7 pages, or even 14?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I think , this model could have been buildt by John Ford ,you can find a similar one in the internet .In my opinion the naked aluminium does not look too good . Because I want to build an idealizised version I´ll paint it red inside too . But it´s important to know , how the real car was painted . Maybe Fred knows something about this .Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCrank Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Coming back home after a good restaurant, to taste a possible menu of wedding meal (my older son wedding in may), I discover all these EXTRAORDINARY NEWS that Olivier brought to us... BRAVO Olivier, and congrats to all of you, who are the more assiduous, obstinate, and perceptive men of this scratchbulld 806's crew ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1. Olivier, I hope you feel better soon 2. The date on the blue prints - perhaps the date of new blue prints outlining chassis and body changes already done but meant for the next racing season >> eg. The ship Titanic was built to the plans of the earlier built Olympic, but with changes which were added to the plans after the Titanic was launched << 3. Not as bad as the 806; my car uses 1/2 L to 1 L of oil every 100mls [165km]. Some comes up around me through that hole in the floor, but it is not burning hot and its mostly onto my trousers below the knees. Lots of very hot air comes up too. Worst is on very wet roads; the water comes up through there and that will hit me up the face, especially if I hit a big puddle. All part of the fun of racing such a car 4 NickD is right about the steering. Lots of 'play' in vintage car steering. I can turn my steering wheel 1/8 of a turn either way before the road wheels move; not only is this acceptable but is considered to be very good! 5. Under the bonnet of my car the inside metal is painted black. Other cars I know are also black or the colour of the outside of the car. Its rare to find them bare metal ie silver aluminium. Inside the cockpit its usual to find the metal the same colour as the outside, again, very rare to find it bare metal. Sometimes more metal is left unpainted on 'restored' cars as the people doing that think thats the way they were. There are a lot of very corrosive vapours blasting about under that bonnet; the paint helps keep the metal from those >> thought; if the 806 had engine over-heating problems, the painting of the inside of the bonnet black or red would help the cooling; leaving it unpainted would make the problem worse. Because; black/dark bodies absorb heat; the bonnet becomes a radiator, silver would reflect the heat back into the engine bay. They did know this back then, its part of the reason my engine bay is black << 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 The Mef´s bonnets are also painted black insdide ! Regarding the frame for the bodywork , do you think , there was another one for the rear? Did the bodywork have a strenghtening profile at it´s base? I wonder why no rivets or bolts can be seen that connect the frame with the body . Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 The rear doesn't really need a frame; its shape holds itself well, it is a closed cone shape, whereas at the front there is no stength so a frame is needed. There might have been a frame for the rear, at the rear edge of the cockpit which the seat attaches to. In car bodies I know the sides come down and are folded inwards thus; L The floor is attached to that bottom arm of the L so we would not see rivets along the outside; they are inside the car going downwards Look at the picture of the cockpit of the Delage on page 53. Although that is an inside sheet of metal joining to the floor and is on top, we would see that row of rivets but with the floor on the top of the short arm of the L The whole body unit, often called the body tub, is held to the long chassis members by only four or at most six bolts, through the floor at strong points. At the front; I believe there must be a frame. Why do we not see rivets holding it? The scuttle panel is recessed down a bit ]_ so the bonnet and its sealing can fit flush Perhaps the rivets are in that recessed part and are hidden from us by the rear edge of the bonnet itself? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I had to read the last senteces several times but now I got it . That´s a very good explanation ! Thank you and have a good night ! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hello guys, short night and still a bit ill, but I found this surprising doc, probably coming from Rev's. We just had the picture (curious, in the version we had, I remember the exhausts were more round - and wrong, so - than that. The short text mentions the engineer Vagliente (?) and calls the car 406 (the name of her engine). But what do you think of the following? Does it seem to you possible this story? When you read the article in Auto italiana and see the crazy enthusiasm Fiat return on a race, difficult to imagine that they did that without Agnelli knew anything, no? I am quite sceptic regarding this version, but it is a third one, still different from the 2 ones we had before. Knowing the real context in which Agnelli ordered the destruction of the car (and all the other race cars) is very important for me, and I hope we will find prooves to know that precisely. Maybe the Rev's will find an article in the last weeks of 1927, mentioning this amazing order. On the other hand, it would be useful to find articles relating Bordino's accident in 15/4/28 and the numbers following, as Dante Giacosa says Agnelli ordered the destruction after Bordino's death. I am sure there is a proof somewhere, and it is a problem for me that we don't know precisely this context. The point of view of Rev's about the inside cockpit painted or not would be so interesting. Are we sure the Delage, originally, was bare metal inside cockpit and bonnets? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Look at these bonnets on the 804. While the outside of the car is very dark, the inside seems to be much lighter. I know we can be abused by the reflexion, but I would say probablity that this inside was metal: at least 50%. Just to feed the debate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PROPELLER Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 After my congratulations for the quality of this topic, my modest contribution... No paint inside engine hoods! Paint is weight! Here, a Talbot Lago T26 hood: Best regards, Dan. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Hannes said: The Mef´s bonnets are also painted black insdide ! Dear Hannes, i don't mean to contradict you, the Black Mef. of Eldridge probably had a black interior but the restaured Mef. has a rough red - almost like a primer red - painted inside, then the fumes and oils boiling gave a dark grey coating. But i must say please don't use the Mef. as a reference ! because this is a completely different car, different generation, different purposes, different racing, primarily designed for breaking speed records and later adapted for circuit racing on some specific tracks ( speed tracks and not too many virages / turns ) this red inside is what we see on the restaured version by Fiat when Agnelli bought it from the English owners ( who also had it painted red ) Edited January 13, 2017 by sharknose156 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, PROPELLER said: After my congratulations for the quality of this topic, my modest contribution... No paint inside engine hoods! Paint is weight! Thank you Dan Yes i am inclined to believe that is how the 806 would have looked at the time. Bare metal. Black Knight's input is logical but i don't think they had the time to paint the inside, it was cold rainy weather also. The heat was coming from the engine when the hood was closed not a combination of weather and engine. IMHO the Delage was also bare metal inside, and the Bugatti too ( of the same races ) Edited January 13, 2017 by sharknose156 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said: When you read the article in Auto italiana and see the crazy enthusiasm Fiat return on a race, difficult to imagine that they did that without Agnelli knew anything, no? Dear Olivier, we know there was a lot of animosity between Senator Agnelli and the race engineers, many ( all ) defecting to Alfa Romeo. So it is very plausible, and most likely so that they hid and did things behind his back. Also, the Fiat take over by Senator Agnelli was just barely completed and not entirely firm. i have a book on the history of Fiat and those years were very political in the histroy of the company and of Italy even as a whole. and as they say Italy is very much Fiat. Edited January 13, 2017 by sharknose156 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Dear Olivier there is a thick book on the history of Fiat and the Agnellis starting from the creation of FIAT at the end of the 19th century by a few people, Agnelli included, and till about the 70's. it includes the glorious days before the second WW when Fiat built its factory of 5 stories and a test track on the roof !! i know i have this book somewhere, but if you want to know what happened on the destruction, i would look at that book as the most reliable source and not various newspaper articles, specially from the chauvinistic italian press, whom we know meddles with the truth in Italian sports till today. Edited January 13, 2017 by sharknose156 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Dear Sam , of course you are right , the bonnets insides of the Mef were not painted , sorry ! I guess they did not remove the blackening caused by the engine due the known positive side-effect Liebe Grüsse ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 5 hours ago, PROPELLER said: After my congratulations for the quality of this topic, my modest contribution... No paint inside engine hoods! Paint is weight! Here, a Talbot Lago T26 hood: Best regards, Dan. Firstly, welcome aboard Dan! For those that don't know; Dan is one of the best automotive scratch builders on the planet! It is an honour to have you here, Sir! As for the rest of you scoundrels, you appreciate you are all barking mad...but in a good way! So much info flowing on here; I keep dipping in and out and having trouble computing all this with my tiny brain! A special thanks to Olivier with his amazing data from The Revs Institute -all while he's nearly on his deathbed. The research on this little car just keeps moving forwards in leaps and bounds! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCrank Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hi all, and welcome to Daniel... Yes it's an honour to see you on this thread ! I know Dan since a few months and I recommend you all to take a (long and thorough) look on his Talbot Lago T26C thread on Scalemotocars.com: http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/classics-and-vintage/18730-article-motm-29-winner-tie-1-8-talbot-lago-t26c.html?highlight=Talbot+lago And get your handkerchiefs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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