Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Sorry crossbeam is the correct name .

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , some remarks regarding the bonnets .As Nick  said , the cam-fairings require a more cone-shaped form.

They are also not extended enough if you look at the frontal photos of our car.

For me these alterings won´t be too difficult , because I will simply glue the Italeri fairings over my Protar bonnets and file them in shape

Also have a look at the 6 rivets of each bonnet ! The first two pairs seem to be OK , but the last two ones have a different distance !

This ugly hinge row should be removed imho ! Because the radiator case is wider now ,a gap between the bonnets seems to be useful.

In this gap real hinges could find their place or fake hinges too.

Also take a look at the frontal gap ( below the cam-fairings beginning ) ! In reality this gap is arched and not pointed !  Many greetings !  Hannes

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

8 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier , it´s about part 9 b and the part of the frame , where it´s fixed .I guess , this strut  had to be exchanged after the accident ( damaged radiator case ) and there was no time enough to paint that new strut imho  Hannes

Ah ok, Hannes, I see. You mean the front leaf spring stand 9 B. I said long ago (I don't remember where) that it was not body color but seemed to be steel or something like that, a light color anyway. Your assumption is interesting, maybe it was body color (or black?) originally, but they had to replace it after the accident. S. Faures does not mention this accident in his book, while he makes a detailed description of the race.

P.S: I have sent you a PM, did you get it?

Edited January 10, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[Totally Mad Olivier]

8 hours ago, Hannes said:

crossbeam is the correct name .

Yes, I think it's better.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Pity, at this moment, my mail was not sent to La Sicilia. I tried to contact them by Whatsapp, but no reply by this way up to now.

This evening, I sent this message to the Director of the Rev's institute library, library that was closed when I visited the museum last 31/12:

 

Hello,

I am Olivier Pansieri, dental surgeon in the south of France, but also model maker (I wrote my first article in Tamyia Model Magazine french edition about the Chevy Bel Air Convertible 1957 about 1 year ago, and it should soon be published in the english edition).

A few months ago, I decided to buy the Italeri kit of the Fiat 806. As I was looking for docs about this car I didn’t know, I saw there were very few docs on the car, because her life had been very short. In the same time, I discovered on the net a very interesting thread in which modelers tried to improve the kit, quite poor and not accurate. I signed in, and began to post in this thread. It was the Fiat 806 Gangshow (in which, pity, some photos have been cancelled). But, gradually, a problem has appeared because the first members of this thread looked unfavorably our efforts (mine but also other modelers ones) to really be as near as possible from truth about this car. With a little group of incentive modelers, we decided to create a new thread, called « Fiat 806: research and scratchbuild » (scratchbuild means in modelers vocabulary that you modify deeply the kit, create pieces etc, instead of just making it straight from the box), that you can see easily on internet.

As my kit was the most advanced, I was especially working on scratchbuild aspects, while others, like Roy, Nick, for example, were more working on the research aspects, using 3D, through others, and trying to find new infos, docs on this legendary car.

In a few weeks, we found many very incredible things, and discovered that I would be the first (the other modellers will follow soon) to give back to that car her real shapes. The historic context was too very important for us.

On this, I have had the opportunity to visit the wonderful Rev’s institute, while I was in holiday with my family in Florida, and in particular at Fort Myers Beach, where American patients of me, who also have a villa on the french Riviera, had invited us.

On this, I have been very very lucky, because I didn’t know the institute, but Elisabeth, my host, who knew my passion for model making cars (I am also an aircraft modeler) told me there was a private museum at Naples. 

Now, I arrive to my asking: Sebastien Faures Fustel de Coulanges, the author of an excellent book, Fiat en Grand Prix 1920- 1930, told me you probably wouldn’t have in your library anything for us we don’t ever have.

But nothing ventured, nothing gained, I decided to come in contact with you, as the library was closed when we visited the institute, last 31/12. I saw several very kind volunteers, like Troy, to whom I explained my (our) quest.

I intend to write a long article on all that research, findings and scratchbuild. In my opinion, the short form is not very well adapted to all what is to say (even if, compared with the 2 threads, a big synthesis work will be necessary), but I won’t find an editor interested in publishing a book on such a narrow subject…

Well, if you could try to find in your library any info, doc, drawing, article, photo of the Fiat 806, I would be very grateful to you to send me what you have.

 

All the best

 

Olivier Pansieri

 

 

 

And there, good surprise, 1 hour only after this sending, I got this reply:

 

Dear Mr. Pansieri:

What a wonderful project. I will try to help you this search.

I will get back to you as soon as I can.

 

For instance, I have avoided inserting names of my correspondents, until they give me authorization to put them on the thread.

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[Hannes]

That ´s good news , Olivier ! After some dissapointments there seem to be some persons with a good will  on this planet too !  Hannes

[Hannes]

In my opinion it´s very helpful if you compare photo 2 with photo 9 side by side .It´s almost the same angle ( photo 9 with a somewhat higher camera.)

I´m not completely sure if the part with the louvres under the exhaust pipe is still there in the racing version , but looking at this spot  several times I think it is.

 

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

Hello to all,

 

I 'll have maybe soon news from La Sicilia, let you know...

 

Why this enlargement of the Rev's Delage?

Because I am working on the relation between the fairing and the bonnets. Pity, we don't have such a photo of the 806, on which it seems that there is not the same separative partition between the engine housing and the cockpit one. Notice that this separative partition is also present on the Rev's Bugatti T 35...

The central stand rod is not present too on the 806 kit. Was there one?

Furthermore, I have slightly decreased the lenght of the body on the fairing portion, about 1,5 mm (it was a bit too long on the kit, IMHO, see above measures). Photos soon.

 

P.S: But, thinking about this question of separative partition, it is true that only the 806 has this very special steering wheel with oil protective screen. Fiat wanted certainly to decrease the weight of the car and choosed this original solution, that personally, I have never seen on any other racing car. We know the cylinder capacity might not exceed 1500 cm3. I wonder if there was a weight limit, that would have forced the Fiat engineers to make such a particular choice, not very pleasant for the pilot, I suppose... Remember that, on the drawing 2, the steering wheel was classic, without screen... 

 

 

Rev's Bugatti T 35: no stand rod. We can suppose it was not present on the 806, unlike on the Delage.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[NickD]

Hannes - Good spot - it looks that way to me too.

 

Olivier - On the rod - It is not on drawing 2 which has been pretty reliable so far so I would leave it out. I had wondered about a firewall bulkhead and concluded that it was not there because the pedals are so far forward. Look at Photo 9. The pedals are around the location of the steering arm. There is a hole in the bodywork there. If they had built a box for to separate Bordino from the engine compartment, why would this not be bodywork? Also looking closely there is a slight change of contrast in the black of this region. Could that be Bordino's overall in the gloom. A higher res view might shed more light!

The need for an oil screen is a strong clue as you say above.

 

I think one of the articles said the engine used 3+kg per 100km. If it wasn't burnt, it must have gone over the driver, not pleasant and can't have helped his grip on pedals and the wheel.

 

NIck

 

 

[Black Knight]

Its quite feasible there is no, or not much of a firewall.

 

Here again, as an example, is my Austin 7.

A previous owner cut away the floor in front of the driver's feet. With it cut away we can acess the gear box, brake levers, starter motor and many other components which might need attention during a race. Without the floor cut away most of these things can only be accessed by raising the whole car and/or removing the engine & gearbox, not too easy during a race, or in the short intervals during a day's racing. This way my nu.1 mechanic can go in head first [like pot-holing - caving,  ] with spanners and make adjustments very quickly.

[Hannes]

There´s no firewall ,but a U-shaped süpport frame (made out of steel ? ) at the beginning of the bodywork .That´s the place , where a possible rod could have been fixed .

But I doubt that and won´t represent a rod in my construction.

Regarding the oil shield Nick mentioned we´re almost sure it was made out of fine metal mesh. It must have been very fine to prevent the hot oil from  soaking through.

I still don´t know how this fine mesh could be represented , because a flexible material will cause a lot of problems ( frame , fixation )

Many greetings !  Hannes

[NickD]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

This way my nu.1 mechanic can go in head first

That's why I never enjoyed or was any good at being a mechanic!

[sharknose156]

i think the first serious firewalls, insulating flames incase of fire and heat, appeared on the Delage of the same year which was notorious to heat up even the pedals and burn the shoe soles of the drivers.

 

A few years back, i remember driving a pre war Riley, and what is called a "firewall" was simply a thin sheet of aluminium or metal and not even complete, stopping over the gearbox and power train. I think this was only to prevent flames in case of fire, not heat. 

 

in conclusion, on the 806 because of what we know about the overheating issues, i would say there must have been a minimum protection against flames, not heat, just like on the Riley.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

So, no firewall?

there seemed to be one on the 804, at least partial. But the 804 steering wheel did not have such a protective screen...

I have checked, the Amilcar and the Talbot G.P had also this firewall. The 806 would be the only car of that period without firewall...

 

 

 

 

 

[NickD]

In the absence of a photo I would try and interpret Drawing 2 together with the 404 above. As with many things. Whatever you chose, you will be the instant world expert and therefore beyond any arguments the rest of us have.

 

Particularly now that, unfortunately, Roy isn't going "Ahhh, but..." and providing a really simple, and compling argument why it is some other way.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I know I ever published this photo of the Delage bonnets, but I think it is so interesting that I do it again: 

1) the inside is steel, not painted. Was it the same for the 806? I would say probable

2) Look how the thickness of the metal is thin, extremely thin. We must get such a thickness on our bonnets and also on the body parts visible, as where the body meets the bonnets, if you decide to open at least 1 bonnet, like me (it would be a pity not to show the engine!)

3) what I don't understand on this photo is that the louvres are invisible from the inside! do you have an explanation?

4) Notice the piece of leather that holds the 2 bonnets parts. I think I will try to reproduce that on my 806, I suppose there was something like that

5) I don't know what is the stuff under  this leather belt. Do you have an idea?

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The question of inside bonnet can be asked for the cockpit too. Usually, the builds are painted red on the inside, as if the car had been painted, and it was my previous intention to do the same. On the Rev's Delage, anyway, inside of cockpit and bonnets are steel... So?

Notice that, on the Delage, there is another wall, behind the cockpit, what we would not have on the 806...

I recall on the Mef, the inside was painted red... but it is a particular case, a private car,  and maybe Eldridge took more in consideration esthetic aspects than Fiat in the very special context of the Milano race...
 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[Black Knight]

You can't see the louvres due to the angle of the metal to the camera; straight on to the edge.

Metal material would be in the region of 1 to 1.3 mm thick.

[Black Knight]

your point 5. do you mean the different coloured strip running from the leather strap at the top down the length of the bonnets to the other leather strap at the floor end?

That is the 'piano' hinge; most likely brass and riveted to both bonnets.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Finally, I got a reply from La Sicilia. They sent me the article, complete (a part of the title ans the last line were missing in SF sending). Pity, no drawings... I have asked them if they could find an insert with them, I am waiting for their reply. If there is nothing more, it would mean that I was wrong thinking the daily paper published Massimino drawings, they just meant that these drawings could now be visible visiting the "Centro Storico"...

 

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Sorry, I have seen the text was not readable:

 

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I got this just now from the Rev's institute library director: it is taken in Motor Italia, a few days after the Milano G.P won by Bordino on the 806.

There is an english version, near the italian one. The article insists on mechanic aspects,very interesting, even if we know some of them. It gives the angle of 25° that makes the radiator, and many other useful infos that I don't have the time to resume now...

Mark told me he would send me all what he may find...

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier ,regarding a heat protection , if there was something like this it was most probably fixed to that frame I already mentioned it 2 times but noone seems to be interested in that subject. .That´s a part which needs to be represented !

We can clearly see the beginning of that frame on many photos .(at the start of this gap under the exhaust pipe .)

Before discussing a possible firewall we should better discuss this support frame.

What material it was made out of ? What kind of profile did it have ? (maybe L-shaped ? )Are there similar constructions under aluminium bodies of other cars? How was it fixed to the frame and to the bodywork ?

Did it serve other purposes besides supporting the bodywork ?These are importat questions ,because no photos of our car with an opened bonnet exist unfortunately

Many greetings ! .

[Roy vd M.]

The things new to me in this article:

 

- "The front axle is in three parts, also machined from the solid" 

- "Both steering rod and the rod are of unusually rigid sections"

- "The frame is very low from the ground; the maximum height is 95 cm. (37 in.) while the maximum width is 80 cm. (32 in.)

- "The radiator is inclined at an angle of 25 degrees and is protected by a wire screen"

 

Furthermore, track gauge (2x130 cm.) and wheelbase (240 cm.) are confirmed, yet again. So I think it can be safely assumed that those numbers are correct (and as such, in line with Drawing 2). By the way the Delage track gauge was also 130 front and 130 aft. Perhaps these were regulations. I've tried to find 1927 Grand Prix season regulations and I have been able to find some, but none regarding track gauge... 

 

As a further credit to the reliability of Drawing 2, the inclination of the radiator as depicted there is 25 degrees. 

 

Regarding sheet metal used in the Delage (mentioned a couple of posts ago), I read that they designed all that to be very thin. Even the frame sheet metal was only 3mm. thin.

 

In final I'd also like to add "Ahhh, but!" lol

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier ,regarding a heat protection , if there was something like this it was most probably fixed to that frame I already mentioned it 2 times but noone seems to be interested in that subject. .That´s a part which needs to be represented !

We can clearly see the beginning of that frame on many photos .(at the start of this gap under the exhaust pipe .)

Before discussing a possible firewall we should better discuss this support frame.

What material it was made out of ? What kind of profile did it have ? (maybe L-shaped ? )Are there similar constructions under aluminium bodies of other cars? How was it fixed to the frame and to the bodywork ?

Did it serve other purposes besides supporting the bodywork ?These are importat questions ,because no photos of our car with an opened bonnet exist unfortunately

Many greetings ! .

1. Probably made of steel, same as the chassis members

2. Profile might be L or hollow box [] or even T or ]  - I've seen all these

3. Yes, there is a similar support on very many cars of the period, and later.

My car doesn't use one because the firewall is part of the body tub, but further back [closer to the driver] is the support section form which is also the mounting for the controls panel. [see the black vertical lines on above photo; those are where the verticals of the n shape are, covered in fibreglass,]

4. It supports the exterior bodywork, makes it keep its shape, adds strength, prevents resonic vibration, helps align the body work onto the chassis, is a solid part for fixing parts to,

Can we see any rivets going across the 806 in that area?