Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thank you very much Nick, for your compliment. I have many defects but I have a lot of will. And anyway, I have no choice: if I want my body to go on my frame correctly, I have to make the necessary corrections. But it's true that, being at the front post has his drawbacks: you have to put up with the initial problems. But it's also a challenge and I like it!

[Roy vd M.]

This is Drawing 2 (v7). I will replace the one in the opening post with the newest version. Right-click on image, choose 'open on new tab' and there choose 'enlarge' for detailed version. 

 

 

 

 

Mind that the front part of the frame in the side view is colored while it isn't in the top view. The reason for that is that we only know the length position, not the lateral positions. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Roy vd M.

[Hannes]

Dear Roy, the crescent-shaped steering arm (right front wheel) seems to have a different form compared with the photos of our 806. Many greetings!  Hannes

[vontrips]

21 minutes ago, Hannes said:

Dear Roy, the crescent-shaped steering arm (right front wheel) seems to have a different form compared with the photos of our 806. Many greetings!  Hannes

No, it's correct and in our images.  I covered this in the old thread and showed an image of my mod to recreate it, Protars version will not even turn the wheels without mechanical contact. It also drops down to make the steering box linkage horizontal.  It was my only clue that this drawing had some kind of provinence and authenticity!

Edited December 16, 2016 by vontrips

[Hannes]

Dear John,thanks for the explanation!  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

16 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

On my side, I tried to evaluate the angle of the steering column on the kit compared with Drawing 2. As we could imagine, the angle is completely wrong...

(...)

The angle of the column is 2 x too much. The top part of 121D is much too high too and will have to be put lower, if we want to put the body on the frame.

Lenght of my steering column  (I modified it - see on Gangshow - imitating John's great piece): 56 mm. I must go now, but I will make the measure on Drawing 2 as soon as I have 5 mn...

 

Why doesn't this discrepancy between drawing and kit surprise me  

 

11 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Roy, I have amended my wednesday post. You were right, I was too sure of myself (it is one of my defects, I admit it).

It is when I wanted to proove I was right (yesterday) that I found contradictory results, (...)  Good new, and again sorry to have "slightly disgruntled" you...

 

It takes the mind of a perfectionist to admit a mistake for the benefit of a better end result. I think all of the contributors to this thread (who have this kit) have at one point in time admitted they were wrong, somewhere. I can also imagine you want to move forward, while my steps are very little. We now have a highly accurate drawing (#2) that we know has about 30% of all areas in the right place. But the remaining 70% we aren't sure about (yet). It's a slow process if you want to do it right and that can be annoying sometimes.

 

10 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

 

Nice!

 

3 hours ago, NickD said:

Gents,

 

A slight addition to last nights post

Using the drawing 2 bonnet hinge for reference, my lines are out by 23 mm at the rear and 6mm at the front. Given our confidence in drawing 2, that is probably a reasonable estimate in the blender model at the moment. Note:  whenI move the line (at the rear), I will also have to reduce the width to line up

 

Interesting finding. The front we know is 97% for sure totally correct, there should not be any deviation. See my updated Drawing 2 v7 above. Still, 6mm. is not much and could be a 1927 drawing error.

 

Regarding the tail, there is a lot more uncertainty. Your findings actually match Photo 4's better than Drawing 2 does. It's possible that the tail of the car as seen in the top view of Drawing 2 is not correct... after all, it was just a draft (remember, the dotted line). As John or Fred said somewhere, the final shape of the 'Bordino tip' could have been finetuned (=amended) in the workshop. 

 

If you come to that conclusion (=Drawing 2 being 23mm. too long tail-wise) I would follow you there. 

 

16 minutes ago, Hannes said:

Dear Roy, the crescent-shaped steering arm (right front wheel) seems to have a different form compared with the photos of our 806. Many greetings!  Hannes

 

 

 

 

First let me say that part of the linkage was removed during the drawing phase, I now see. That's unintentional. See here the original version (original Drawing 2 can still be found in the opening post by clicking a link there). Here the unamended version:

 

 

Here parts of the photos that show this part:

 

Photo 6A:

 

 

 

Photo 7A:

 

 

 

Photo 10: 

 

 

 

Photo 12:

 

 

 

Photo 21:

 

 

 

 

I think your objection to Drawing 2 is a result of my drawing error (=removing part of the linkage). I will try to remember correcting that in the next amended version of Drawing 2.

[sharknose156]

Magnificent work .... Fiat should be proud and medals are in order

[Roy vd M.]

Sharknose sorry but the above deductions and conclusions regarding Drawing 2 v7 are not correct. 

 

The radiator cap isn't seen in Engine Drawing 5, so the basis for the above connection isn't there. I will update Drawing 2 when I'm up to it

 

Beside that John kindly and correctly warned me that in order to measure the position of the radiator cap we need to know the height of the radiator cover vis-a-vis the tyre. 

 

Edit.... but I have a better way to measure! The front of the frames in Photo 4!! 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Roy vd M.

[Hannes]

_{Dear Olivier,one important issue regarding your fairing: The point,where the fairing almost meets the bonnets is not situated in the middle,but meets the right bonnet. I´m just working with my own fairing,so I thought,I should let you know.  Greetings!  Hannes}

[Roy vd M.]

4 minutes ago, Hannes said:

_{Dear Olivier,one important issue regarding your fairing: The point,where the fairing almost meets the bonnets is not situated in the middle,but meets the right bonnet. I´m just working with my own fairing,so I thought,I should let you know.  Greetings!  Hannes}

 

That's correct, you can see it quite clearly in the HR equivalent of Photo 17 but when you check out the documentary in lower resolution you can also see it. Beware that the clear curve downward is not the fairing but the end of the right hand bonnet.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Despite the reduction of height of the top panel of 121 D (now, I get the correct value of 52,5 mm like in D2, instead of 57 mm previously), it is not enough to get the 16° angle of the steering column (I get 20° which even much better than 30...). To get 16°, I had to cut 124D that stands the steering wheel (see on step 15). I cut in the same time the column itself, for 3 reasons:

- cutting 124D, I have a bit damaged the column, requiring filling and sanding

- I am not sure the lenght of the column will fall exactly at the right place, considering the cockpit section is a bit too long IMHO

- my decision to integrate my Bordino figure in the car: I suppose this integration will be easier without the steering wheel, and this one will be placed at the last time, before putting the body on the frame.

 

 

 

 

Decreasing at most the top panel of 121 D obliged me to modify my ignition wiring, that got out outside before, and inside (like Little Andi in the Gangshow) now.  Anyway, we had no certainty on that point, and esthetically, I think I prefer it like that:

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

 

5 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier,one important issue regarding your fairing: The point,where the fairing almost meets the bonnets is not situated in the middle,but meets the right bonnet. I´m just working with my own fairing,so I thought,I should let you know.

 

Is that what you mean, Hannes? I should modify the fairing there, following the little red arrow?

[Totally Mad Olivier]

This morning, I made a temporary cement of the steering column I had cut, to make a check. 

As you can see, despite I go the good height (52,5 mm) for my parameter n°7, decreasing very much 121D (see above), impossible up to now to put correctly the reduced body on the frame. 

Why?

- the body under the fairing (red arrow1) still interferes with the top of 121D

- the engine is too heigh. I will have to open more the floor (see next post)

 

This photo shows also:

- the 2nd red arrow shows my 124D part cut to be modified to get the good angle for my steering column

- my rear louvres suffered of my big work on Bordino tip, to get a fine tip. I will have to redo them.

- not yet redone the leaf springs stands 34B, much too big on the kit.

 

It's still the barn raising... but I'm confident.

 

Edited December 17, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Roy vd M.]

Olivier judging by your fairing picture I don't think it would have to be corrected much, if at all. 

 

Your progress sure is nice, I like the view on that last picture. Engine will need to make a bit of a dive though. 

 

On a personal note I will be a bit less active in this thread during the end of this year (or at least I hope I can manage that) due to deadlines and other non-hobby related work that really should be done. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

16 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

Engine will need to make a bit of a dive though

Thanks Roy, but I don't understand what you meant there. Can you precise please? 

Furthermore, me too, I won't right and build anything from the 24/12 until the 2/1, because I will be in holiday, far from my 806 (my wife is very pleased me to leave for a few days my build!)

[Hannes]

_{Dear Olivier, yes the fairing´s start should get delayed some mm to the left and reach the edge imho , Many greetings Hannes}

[Roy vd M.]

I mean to say that the engine should sit a bit lower, or maybe it just seems to be that way because of the photo.

 

Not only does my work wait for me, I also didn't spend any time on my McLaren for 5 weeks and I would like to get back to that a bit as well.   

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier, if you want to represent the wrapped-in wire ,that strenghtens the aluminium parts I recommend Strip Styrene by Evergreen,size 0,25 / 0,5 mm.

For the fairing I recommend to fix them on both sides (upper ending),for all the other pars one strip inside should suffice.  Many greetings!  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

18 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Olivier, yes the fairing´s start should get delayed some mm to the left and reach the edge imho

Ok Hannes, I will modify this, thanks.

17 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

I mean to say that the engine should sit a bit lower, or maybe it just seems to be that way because of the photo.

No Roy, it's not the photo, you are right. I have been working 2 hours non stop on the problem of decreasing the engine in height (that requires to open more the floor), removing the body part under the fairing (in order to replace it by a thinner and a bit higher part, probably made of 0,3 mm alu foil - not yet done -), modifying the top of 121 D that was still touching the body when trying to put it on the frame, and decreasing the thickness of the body at this level. All this is to follow with photos done at different steps. I warn you, all that requires good instruments and a lot of patience.

But I've got it, now my body (before replacing the part under the fairing, as mentioned) can find its place on the frame. I will have to improve yet this aspect in order my engine is well left centered. A big barn raising... 

P.S: on the front, the engine stands on the kit's seat, for the photo, because my cross engine stands have broken with all that stuff. I will soon re-cement them...

Edited December 18, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Roy vd M.]

Yesterday John gave me a welcome trip down 'drawing class memory lane' as regards perspective drawing (boxes / crosses). That will be of major use when making further measurements and calculations on the basis of the photos. 

 

The final thing I wanted to do before my (hopefully short) quasi-hibernation is check the position of the start of the frame rails. The boxes / crosses system isn't required here but I did need to find the horizon / perspective disappearing point. In Inkscape I drew guidelines (blue) and perspective lines (red).

 

 

 

I needed the lengthwise position of the front beam but to check the approximate height I checked photo 21. 

 

 

 

The beam is situated a bit below the wheel centre. 

 

Approximately here (green circles.... I see now that they should be a bit higher but that matters little as to the measurements or 'conclusions'). For the higher placement compare Photo 14, the lowest side view of the car we have. 

 

 

 

 

 

If stretched, the beam would therefore pierce the tyre wall a tad right to its centre. 

 

As you can see it's just like that in Drawing 2. 

 

 

 

 

To me this is convincing enough. Let's call it an accuracy of 85% (which could be improved by measuring Photo 21 and using those results on Photo 4 and Drawing 2, but I call it a day). In v8 of Drawing 2 only the text (paragraph G) was changed. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2016 by Roy vd M.

[vontrips]

Looks good enough to me Roy!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Good evening to all.

 

Photo 1: the hatched portion has to be removed. It will be kept to use as template for the 0,3 mm alu foil replacement part, that will be so very easily made. The alu foil will be placed a bit higher.

 

Photo 2: Several areas on the front part of the floor prevent the engine from going down and must be removed. I used for that a fine diamond disc with a long mandrel, to avoid damaging the frame while doing the job.

 

Photo 3: the plastic is thick, 1,67 mm at this level (and much more on the tail...), its replacement with alu foil will save us 1,37 mm.

 

Photo 4: the body, here is, still more, 2,34 mm. It must be made finer, sanding the inside with a big bur. I used a marker on the body (first outside, body on the frame, then inside, body separated) to see where the correction is necessary...

 

Photo 5: the cut portion formed in the floor will be enlarged left side of around 4 mm.

 

Photo 6: Well, that's it, my body may come down now on my frame. I didn' yet replace the part under the fairing but I am glad, it didn't  go alone! Notice that the steering column makes now the good angle, but it is too long  (steering wheel should be nearer from the fairing). 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Roy vd M.]

Wow this really starts looking like a Fiat 806. 

 

It's been 88 years since anyone has seen that shape in 3D and there is no reason to doubt that you are really very very close....! 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Thanks Roy. You made a good job to confirm the beam position. Good to see it is in accordance with Drawing 2. Hope your "hibernation" won't last too much, cause I (and we) need you!! 

Yes, there is still a lot of work, but all (or nearly all) is OK up to now. Another photo to show that the transmission tree (sky blue line is now correct, horizontal like in Drawing 2). I replaced the 02 nuts by 04 ones, smaller (green arrow). Another arrow is missing to see the 124D cut piece, that will be modified  to allow decreasing still a bit the steering column and get the good angle, 16°. Sorry, not very nice, the filling on the column, this is yet to do, after precising the good lenght... 

 

 

 

I made a top view comparison: the frame should be a bit wider and the engine - that seems a litlle big on this comparison -  should be more left centered. But we must take in consideration that the body will give a wider shape on top view.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Totally Mad Olivier]

I was surprised to see that, despite I cut my column, losing so 2 mm (it was 56 mm, it is now 54 mm), my steering wheel is too far from the fairing (I recall I measured the column on D2 at 57 mm). I thought about it and I think I understand now: it is just because (as I said with my measures above), the cockpit is too long on the kit (I measured that as well on photos 1 and 4 as on D2).

 

Indeed, if I remove fe 3 mm lenght on the body at this level, the steering wheel will become nearer from the fairing. I think I'll do that, persuaded I will be closer from truth. That means I would have to cut the frame of the same lenght at this level of the same value, before cutting it too on the front...

Edited December 18, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
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