Consultation on the future of groupbuilds

[old thumper]

12 minutes ago, Enzo Matrix said:

 

   

 

I know, that's why it's a Gordian knot.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

40 minutes ago, old thumper said:

 

I know, that's why it's a Gordian knot.

 

 

nodnodnod   Turn me to any cause of policy...    

[trickyrich]

Well Enzo I think you’ve actually pretty well nailed it on the head with what you’ve proposed.

 

It seems to be a good way forward, breaking it up into three groups seems a very fair way of controlling GB topics. Having a section just for Modelling Genres is nice, these are usually the most inclusive of all the GB’s, they’re are pretty much bring what you like and build it....but they still have a strong themes. Unfortunately these are the ones that face the hardest challenge in getting the votes to go through into the GB Calendar, something of which I have always found strange as they are just so open!

 

The numbering split is a good idea as well, it helps the GB calendar from being overrun by certain types of builds. Thought the before each poll the balance of GB’s within the themes would need to be looked at so the balance could be altered slightly just before voting if the “balance” of GB topics/themes is heavily weighted one way or another. The balance within these themes could be addressed by a “Wild Card” entry.

 

Talking of the different themes, selecting at the time of the GB proposal which category/theme you’d like it to go in is a good idea.  Though something like the SciFi GB would be more a Specialist Theme rather than one of the other two, I’d go the same way with AFV GB’s as well. I don’t think we should call the Specialist Theme GB just a place for the fly boys and girls. There is no reason why there couldn’t be a “Half-track” GB, or a SPG or MBT GB (they love their acronyms), or even a Patrol Boat GB in this section. These are specific enough to be specialised rather than general theme. The only issue would be numbers of votes they’d receive, again votes a normally heavily weighted towards aircraft subjects. So may be in this case there could then be a “wildcard” entry for one of these non-aircraft subjects.

 

How could it work.....say there were 6 aircraft based GB’s a 4 AFV based ones in the Specialist GB category and one of the AFV GB’s was 4th placed in the voting, only 3 were to go through that year. Then depending on the number of GB’s in the other two themes (eg “Modelling Genre GB” only had two proposed GB’s you wouldn’t automatically have them both go through), then one spaces could be dropped, making way for this AFV GB as a  Wildcard entry into next year’s calendar.  Again prior to the poll all the GB’s and categories would need to be looked and the numbers for each one adjusted so the balance is just right.

 

As far as the carry over GB’s would go I think it would be fair to take the next 2-3 in each theme (depending on numbers) and add them to the following year’s poll. Due to their positions, they just didn’t quite have the interest to go through, but given a chance to tweak their proposal or a general change in interests they hopefully get it through next time.

 

While I’m at it I do like Antoine's idea of a buddy build concept, it does have a lot of merits. I don’t really see that the GB’s as they currently are being too limiting, or have too many rules, or even boring, and the scope while it may be very wide in a couple of this year’s GB’s, it did/has produced a huge number of interesting a varied builds. Unfortunately we need rules and limits to help control the sometimes uncontrollable GB’s, as any host would readily agree!

 

But he is perfectly right about having some of these “micro” specialist GB’s, which are a perfect chance for some of the more unusual subjects and models to appear in. These are the type of GB’s that never seem to make it even to the voting stage, let alone going through into the GB calendar! They would need to be in a separate group and run/operate independently of the large GB’s, may be even have their own moderator.......poor Enzo needs to have a wee break every so often. But it’s an idea I’m really keen on...good one Antoine! 

 

Gosh this was only going to be a short reply...........but still at work and I’m bored.....and it’s still stinking hot!!  

[Rob G]

I wasn't going to put my oar in, but here goes.... Simple is best. Quotas this, quotas that, what a lot of unnecessary work for Enzo, and a whole pile of worm-tin opening arguing from us. From what I'm reading, the non-aircraft builders don't want to build aircraft. The car guys couldn't give 2 hoots about tanks. Aircrafties despise all others (joking, but based in fact.). Fair enough. Ignoring the inconvenient fact that Britmodeller is MOSTLY aircraft builders (in fact most of the world's modellers mostly build aircraft), we'll see what we can do to accommodate the fringe

I don't believe that trying to force GBs through by legislation is the best approach, it gets everyone's back up. Let the market decide - as Antoine put it <An idea for a GB? Post it, then you've 15 days to get a co-host and 10 signatures (Only to be sure you'll not be alone in your GB). A quick brief with Enzo, then off you go with your team for three to four months. > If your proposal doesn't float, the majority has spoken - you have no clue and your botty has been soundly spanked, go build your thing anyway and have fun.

That way, the armour guys get to play in the mud, the car guys can polish their rockets and the airyplaney chaps also get to do their wingy thing, and since none of them are interested in doing what the others are doing, there's no conflict on the calendar. If you WANT to join in with what is for you an 'off brand' GB, that's your choice, and YOU can juggle the times to make sure you get both of yours done. We're all (mostly) adults and I think that we're all (mostly) able to arrange our lives to fit in the things we want to do.

"Theatre' or 'themed' builds would fit in here - want to do an African Bush Wars GB, or a Diesel Submarines 1945-1960 GB? Follow the rules, have at it. Even something as big as the (previously held) Lesser Built Air Forces GB would fit in here.

The only exception to the above would be 'special' GBs- various anniversaries, in memoriums, KUTA and Blitz etc - those will need to be tabled by Enzo and assigned times as appropriate. But there's not many of those and mostly, they're aircraft ones anyway, so the non-aircraft people can just keep ignoring them as they've been doing for years.

Antoine's numbers may need tweaking, and there'll have to be some supervision to make sure that failed GB ideas aren't posted more than a couple of times a year (or whatever), but simple is best, in all things. Especially GBs.

Of course the changeover could be somewhat fraught...

EDIT - STGBs can probably go along as they are now, with a relaxation in numbers required. Proposal, collect votes, get assigned a slot when it comes available. However, due to the whole "I don't build tanks/cars/skiffy/bloodyairyplanes!" thing that we seem to have, I think that more slots could be opened up. Again, if you decide to join in on 2 or more concurrently running GBs, it's up to you to manage your participation.

[D1fuN0]

Afternoon Chaps 

 

Enzo, after reading Antoinne's, Robs and Trickyrich's posts above, maaaaybe we are looking at this the wrong way.

Allow me for a second to expound further.

 

Maybe, we should actually just leave the GB's the way that they are at the moment, and rather put focus to another vehicle, those being STGB's and Buddy builds, as has been mentioned previously. The main GB gala at the end of the year would cater for the majority of modellers on BM, namely aircraft related subjects.

Single type group builds and buddy builds could actually be the answer to the great moaning hoard, otherwise known an car/ship/scifi and the rest, modellers (joke).

 

There seems to be a fine set of rules for STGB's and i see no reason why, with maybe a little more recruited help, that a set number of STGB's could be run concurrently with the main GB calender. lets for arguement sake say there's 8 a year, but don't forward book them into the next year. Once the 8 slots are booked, that's it for the year.

 

Add onto this the Buddy Builds. Again, some recruited help to mod them, and these would fill in all those little odd cliques that probably wouldn't draw the required bodies for a normal GB. Buddy builds are difficult to get off the ground, ask me I've tried, however, a buddy build is usually a single persons idea put forward to the forum. STGB's are sort of similar in that respect, someone that loves, Shermans for arguement sake thinks it a cool idea for a STGB and post the idea.

 

Maybe it would assist the chaps as a whole, if we had an STGB chat and BB chat section, where chaps can maybe put forward an idea. If the get the required number of people, they could post it officially. Guys can then post up there idea's, who's interested in a Renault 4 BB?, Whose interested in a HMS Zulu BB, etc.

 

So, in short. Leave the main GB section as is, and maybe put more into growing the STGB and BB area's. Recruit a couple more underling moderators for those two groups and sit back and be amazed at how wonderfully it all works 

BTW, id be quite willing and happy to do test runs on BB's

 

Mad Steve

 

[D1fuN0]

Afternoon Chaps 

 

Enzo, after reading Antoinne's, Robs and Trickyrich's posts above, maaaaybe we are looking at this the wrong way.

Allow me for a second to expound further.

 

Maybe, we should actually just leave the GB's the way that they are at the moment, and rather put focus to another vehicle, those being STGB's and Buddy builds, as has been mentioned previously. The main GB gala at the end of the year would cater for the majority of modellers on BM, namely aircraft related subjects.

Single type group builds and buddy builds could actually be the answer to the great moaning hoard, otherwise known an car/ship/scifi and the rest, modellers (joke).

 

There seems to be a fine set of rules for STGB's and i see no reason why, with maybe a little more recruited help, that a set number of STGB's could be run concurrently with the main GB calender. lets for arguement sake say there's 8 a year, but don't forward book them into the next year. Once the 8 slots are booked, that's it for the year.

 

Add onto this the Buddy Builds. Again, some recruited help to mod them, and these would fill in all those little odd cliques that probably wouldn't draw the required bodies for a normal GB. Buddy builds are difficult to get off the ground, ask me I've tried, however, a buddy build is usually a single persons idea put forward to the forum. STGB's are sort of similar in that respect, someone that loves, Shermans for arguement sake thinks it a cool idea for a STGB and post the idea.

 

Maybe it would assist the chaps as a whole, if we had an STGB chat and BB chat section, where chaps can maybe put forward an idea. If the get the required number of people, they could post it officially. Guys can then post up there idea's, who's interested in a Renault 4 BB?, Whose interested in a HMS Zulu BB, etc.

 

So, in short. Leave the main GB section as is, and maybe put more into growing the STGB and BB area's. Recruit a couple more underling moderators for those two groups and sit back and be amazed at how wonderfully it all works 

BTW, id be quite willing and happy to do test runs on BB's

 

Mad Steve

 

[Giorgio N]

Enzo's proposal sounds good to me, although I'm not sure that we could always have 2 modelling genre GBs proposed every year as these come less often than others. With the scheme proposed there would be a good number of all inclusive GBs, I'm thinking for example of those focused on a country that would allow really every kind of model (with some problem maybe only for sci-fi fans). Campaign or theatre themed GB are also very inclusive, at least when it comes to military model builders.

One thing that may be worth considering is a "pause" for some GBs, as had been proposed by someone in another thread (sorry, can't remember who but I found this a good idea): the Made in Britain GB for example was very succesful this year and it's been proposed again (and will likely be voted) for next year. I understand that we all love to build British subjects, but maybe a year pause before proposing a repeat of the same GB would allow other ideas to go through ? If I understand right we have a similar policy for STGBs, maybe having one for GBs could be useful.

 

I've read with interest the idea of these so-called "buddy-builds" and they may be quite interesting, allowing modelers to build to a certain theme and showing their work together without having to go through a full GB. They may be a good solution for a wide number of ideas that would never get enough votes to become a proper GB. What I don't know though is how intensive they may be in terms of moderation from the BM crew, adding more load to the moderators may be a bit unfair from our side, but if the moderating load is limited and hosts are willing to take a bir more of their usual share then the buddy-build idea may work very well

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I like your suggestions.....My only thought would be to reverse the proposed weighting, giving extra slots to the more inclusive GBs, and less to the more narrowly focussed themes. 

[JOCKNEY]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I like your suggestions.....My only thought would be to reverse the proposed weighting, giving extra slots to the more inclusive GBs, and less to the more narrowly focussed themes. 

 

Careful boys this looks like a trap.......

 

please tread carefully 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Properly brightened my day that did Pat.....You are a star! 

[Kallisti]

I'm all for giving categories that aren't aircraft GBs a guaranteed spot - the current GB vote is so heavily skewed in favour of predominantly aircraft GBs that anything else has no chance - eg Big Screen, Little Screen had huge support in the thread but hasn't got the votes and is being swamped by aircraft-focused GBs..

 

Do we also need to improve the way the vote is announced to people so that people actually participate in the vote? Only 207 voters out of the entire BM membership? At the time of writing this there were 108 people logged on and active on BM - the message just isn't getting out there!

[vppelt68]

Some people just are Group Builders, some just are not. I have never posted one single WIP or RFI picture outside the GB section!

 

I don´t think it´s necessary to increase the number of voters. Though every Britmodeller- member has a right to vote for GB:s to happen and then follow them, I´d still want the majority that makes the decisions to be the crowd that actually participates in them. This is an open community and should stay as such forever, but still the voice of active group builders should be heard through the watchers-only. There´s nothing wrong with the current situation. Regards, V-P

 

[Panzer Vor!!!]

Hi

As someone who does not take part in GBs may i offer the following ,

Why 6 ??

Let each GB be self mod by the host and the Mods step in if it gets silly

If you only have 6 then only 3 for aircraft no more (stop the aircraft swamping in the section)

As i see it other GB dont get going  because other modellers deterred by year long wait to start

Decrease the number of votes to start a GB

 

 

[bootneck]

I agree with Panzer Vor on this. 

I also think the most frustrating thing, for potential non-aircraft group builders, is when there are repeats of subject  "plane 1 gb followed by plane 2 gb" etc., but yet again no choice for other subjects.  They've already had one go so give someone else a slot.

 

Mike

[Caerbannog]

On 13.11.2016 at 3:14 AM, trickyrich said:

(...) Having a section just for Modelling Genres is nice, these are usually the most inclusive of all the GB’s, they’re are pretty much bring what you like and build it....but they still have a strong themes. Unfortunately these are the ones that face the hardest challenge in getting the votes to go through into the GB Calendar, something of which I have always found strange as they are just so open!(...)

 

I wondered about this every time the poll is open. Especially this year. "Big screen, little screen", "ANZAC", "Racers" and others a a real surprise to me regarding the votes they got. All are not exclusive wingy things GBs. Could it be that people do not quite know what each topic does actually mean?

Maybe it would be a good idea to give a brief summary about each topic in the very first post of the poll.

 

Then I wonder if some GB themes would qualify to be fixed permanently. "Made in GB GB" sounds so mandatory for Britmodeller to me that I would think it could easily be a fixed date. Maybe not each year but maybe every second one. "Non-injection GB" springs to my mind as well because it focuses on the different workmanship and is very open to the subject. In this regard a "Conversion to scratchbuild GB" could be workable as well But there will be other topics which might qualify better. Just a thought. This would at least make one GB per year for sure which is not just aircraft related but works for almost all subjects.

 

René

 

 

[Enzo the Magnificent]

2 hours ago, Panzer Vor!!! said:

As someone who does not take part in GBs may i offer the following ,

Why 6 ??

Let each GB be self mod by the host and the Mods step in if it gets silly

 

Actually 9...

 

Experience has shown that if we have lots of GBs running at the same time, then people get GB fatigue.  

 

The calendar for next year has an average of 6 GBs and STGBs running at any one time.  Any more than this and people start complaining that there are too many.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

All good ideas.....Of course we could just ban the 'wingy-mob' from having any GBs for say, five or ten years, see how they like it for a change? 

[bootneck]

Ha ha!  that's probably the only way I'd ever get my idea of a 1:144 scale scratchbuild aircraft carrier plan onto a GB!     Although, I'd probably need five to ten years to complete it.

[AngstROM]

Actually, it's all good. Like old thumper, I totally endorse Enzo's approach.

 

BUT...once, just once, I would like to have some participation in a GB that doesn't end with my trying to bury something in the woods in the dead of night...

[Panzer Vor!!!]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

All good ideas.....Of course we could just ban the 'wingy-mob' from having any GBs for say, five or ten years, see how they like it for a change? 

Bit short i think how about  20 years ???

[Ratch]

On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 9:57 AM, Kallisti said:

Only 207 voters out of the entire BM membership? At the time of writing this there were 108 people logged on and active on BM - the message just isn't getting out there!

Some of us aren't interested. I think the GBs here are too long and I don't like the Prizes at the end element, so I abstain. I read this thread hoping for change but the BM GB ethos remains the same.

[JOCKNEY]

32 minutes ago, Ratch said:

Some of us aren't interested. I think the GBs here are too long and I don't like the Prizes at the end element, so I abstain. I read this thread hoping for change but the BM GB ethos remains the same.

 

I don't know about too long, as a serial non finisher they are never long enough ! 

 

cheers Pat

 ,

[trickyrich]

6 hours ago, JOCKNEY said:

 

I don't know about too long, as a serial non finisher they are never long enough ! 

 

cheers Pat

 ,

 

who you!!! never!  

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'm with both Jockney and Ratch here.....I'd generally agree that the duration of GBs here is about right, another month or two would be quite welcome from my perspective, but I suspect more comitted modellers might get a bit bored.  My other interests are a big factor here, if the wind is good kits must by neccessity take a back seat to kites and my dogs trump all other considerations.

 

On the other hand I'm not a huge fan of the competetive element of GBs here.....I fully believe that it's the taking part that counts and I personally get much more enjoyment from the banter and the new information that I pick up in the build threads than I do from looking at the finished builds in the gallery.  Similarly I don't compete when I'm kiting and my dogs (despite their coursing pedigree) run for joy rather than rosettes.

 

Ha ha!  that's probably the only way I'd ever get my idea of a 1:144 scale scratchbuild aircraft carrier plan onto a GB!     Although, I'd probably need five to ten years to complete it.

 

Having seen your other projects I'd love to see that build! 

 

This might interest you (lots & lots of pages & massively photo heavy, but well worth a look):  http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=331&t=34448

[CliffB]

23 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

 and my dogs trump

 

Don't they all!