Jump to content

Heinkel He 111H AW177 Question


e8n2

Recommended Posts

I am thinking about starting a Hasegawa He 111H kit soon and want to do it as AW177 of the captured aircraft flight.  I had always assumed it was DE/DG over yellow, but one of the references I checked this afternoon said it was left in Luftwaffe colors.  That doesn't really make sense to me, as at a minimum you would think it had yellow undersides.  The well known picture of the aircraft in flight looks to me to have been overpainted in RAF markings, but I would like to make sure before I start.  Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The photos (there are loads on google images) do show what look like very bright undersides, they must have been overpainted as they would have been messed up a bit when it first belly landed.

Also, since the Staffel emblem is still on the nose in the pics, it suggests that the original top scheme has been retained apart from overpainting the crosses, swastikas and codes and adding the roundels.  I would assume that RAF colours were used for the painting over of the markings, eg DG.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did some more reading and found that the aircraft crashed in November of 1943, with four fatalities.  By that time it would have had C1 and C roundels, and probably repainted in British colors, so when I do start on it, that is how I plan to finish it.

Later,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A google for "He 111 AW177" reveals several iterations of repaint.  Here's one that seems to be early, not so neat as later.  Note the odd underwing proportions.

http://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p706960306/h426FD1C4#h426fd1c4

 

Here's another:

 

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234922801-raf-trainers-vol-1-1918-1945/

 

Edited by RJP
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

AW177, was with No. 1426 ‘Enemy Aircraft’ Flight at Collyweston from 12th April 1943. The Flight was not allowed to fly more than 5 miles from Collyweston without a fighter escort. The Heinkel crashed 10 November 1943 at Polebrook, when it came in to land as the Flight's Ju88 was taking off The Heinkel stalled and crashed killing all on board - it was ferrying ground crew. After this incident ground crew always travelled separately. A couple of good references are:

AIRfile RAF Trainers Volume 1: 1918-1945 ISBN 978-0-9569802-4-3 page 45

WAR PRIZES The Album ISBN 1-85780-244-6 page 36

The He111 retained its RLM 70, but the RLM 71 was over painted with dark earth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How remarkably sensible, but i would rather doubt that they followed all the sharper angles of the original, particularly the very tight W on top of the fuselage in the standard German scheme.

 

However, given the close (ok, pretty fair) match between RLM 71 and RAF Dark Green, might it have been even more sensible to overpaint the 70?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The large in air picture looks like it was taken shortly after its capture with the German markings painted over and RAF roundels substituted.  The yellow undersides are a given.  Thanks for all the help gents.  It will be something once it is done.  I'm starting to get on a captured Axis aircraft trek right now.  Not everything getting built will be that way, but at least I am compiling the information I will need.

Later,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just before getting on-line this evening I checked my copy of "British Aviation Colours of World War II".  Experimental aircraft, which the He 111, and also the Me 410 which I will also do later in the same scheme, would have been in the temperate land scheme of DE/DG over yellow.  The photos I have downloaded of the Me 410 show the prototype marking, but haven't seen any photos of the He 111 with the later C/C1 roundels, but by the time of its fatal accident it would be logical to assume that it probably also had the prototype circle.  I have an older Almark sheet with the prototype circles, and if need be I seem to recall that Hannant's has an Xtradecal sheet with them as well.

Later,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

Just for reference, here's a bad ipad pic of the colour photo. Not sure if those are codes either side of the roundel

 

IMG_1029_zpskydkvi80.jpg

What I find really interesting about this shot is that the KG 26 (I believe that is the correct unit) emblem is still on the aircraft.  I will drop the idea of the prototype circle when I do it, but still with the C/C1 roundels.  I looked over the book again and the ME 410 was probably in DG/OG over yellow day fighter scheme.  Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it.

Later,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at the images closely, including the IWM image, it appears that the fin flash is not painted evenly, with the colours being almost stepped down toward the rear.

Not being an expert on any aircraft is there something on the structure of the fin that can account for that?

 

DennisTheBear

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking over the pictures posted above, I can't see any "step down" in the size of the fin flash.  What is interesting is that in the photo linked to by RJP, the fin flash appears to be the height of the fin and the serial AW177 is in black instead of white.

Later,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/11/2016 at 5:42 PM, Dave Fleming said:

Don't have an electronic copy of the colour image (IIRC it was a still from a cine film, in Freeman's book on RAF in Colour) but this one shows the pattern they followed quite well20140119014840.jpg

 

10 hours ago, DennisTheBear said:

Looking at the images closely, including the IWM image, it appears that the fin flash is not painted evenly, with the colours being almost stepped down toward the rear.

Not being an expert on any aircraft is there something on the structure of the fin that can account for that?

 

DennisTheBear

 

Dennis The Bear

 

you are not alone! I can see what you mean in this image, the top and to a lesser extent the bottom of the fin flash do look like they are stepped or sloped downwards as the go backwards towards the rudder. I was going to suggest that it was the rudder actuator that was causing this but on looking closer the actuator is situated a fair bit above the flash. Any He111 experts out there able to think of a panel/structure that micght necessitate this? Of course, it is possible that they give this job to the new lad who hadn't quite got the hang of this straight line thing ;)

 

1 hour ago, e8n2 said:

Looking over the pictures posted above, I can't see any "step down" in the size of the fin flash.  What is interesting is that in the photo linked to by RJP, the fin flash appears to be the height of the fin and the serial AW177 is in black instead of white.

Later,

Dave

 

Dave

 

Well spotted on the height of the fin flash, I had to go back and have a look and then wonder how on earth I didn't spot it! In mitigation of that HUGE miss on my part, I did spot the black serial.....

 

All the best gents

 

DC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's certainly been repaired and repainted at various stages. Looking through my pics, I have a couple of fairly low-resolution pics of it with C roundels.

 

The one with the big fin flash and black serial is captioned as being at the RAE in at least one book, so I wonder if it's the scheme applied in 1940?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Dave!  Those images are great.  In the third from top photo it almost looks like it was repainted in an RAF pattern.  On the second photo from the top I can see, even though it is hidden, it still has the original German unit marking.  I think it was from II/KG26.  From various references it is either black and yellow, or red and white.  The dog looks to light to be black, and the background does seem to be yellow.

Later,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...