Which is the better model?

[ShipbuilderMN]

Not long ago, one of my old models, the four-masted barque Bidston Hill, appeared on Ebay for 99p with no reserve.     Looking it up in my records, I see that I built it and sold it in 1973 for £16, and considered it a very good price at that time.      I did bid £16 for it on Ebay for "old time's sake," but the price quickly shot up to about £400 - I was amazed.     It was sold to someone in the USA who would have had to pay quite a fair amount to have it delivered.     Just for interest I e-mailed the buyer saying that I had built in in '72, and sold it for £16.   I also sent an image of the four-masted barque Donna Francisca,  to show how much I had improved.     I was not trying to sell him anything, as the Donna Francisca was not for sale at that time, and I do not take private commissions anyway.     I was amazed when he came back and told me that he could see no difference in the quality of the two models.    Since then, I have found that this inability to distinguish between good and poor is quite widespread when it comes to ship models.    It really bothers me to think that I have spent all these years striving to improve, when that hard-won improvement is not apparent to a large number of the people.

Bob

I have added a poll to see what other Britmodllers think!

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by ShipbuilderMN
Added a .line

[stever219]

You may be a victim of beauty being in the eye of the beholder.  I can only wonder at the skill and workmanship displayed in both models, but to me Donna Francisca shows more finesse, for example the blocks in the rigging.  The photo of Bidston Hill probably doesn't do her justice, but that could be down to the way it appears on my screen.

[whitestar12chris]

Bob to the trained eye without a doubt the later model is better than the earlier one, your ship models are a joy to see, dont get disheartened bysilly comments.

 

All the best Chris

[ShipbuilderMN]

Thanks for replies.    The display case and name on the Bidston Hill are not very good, neither is the sea.    The shape of the hull leaves a lot to be desired and the sails are just flat rather than wind-filled.    The leading clew (corner) of the foresail (Lowest square sail on the foremast) should be taken forward, rather than aft.   But at that time, I had no idea how to shape and set a square sail.    The masts, spars and bowsprit are too thick, and the flag doesn't look right (she would not be flying a flag anyway in that sort of weather.)       I traced the history of the Bidson Hill model.     It was originally sold via a local junk shop.   The buyer kept it for a number of years, but eventually sold it to raise some cash for something.     The next owner had it for some time, but eventually gave it to a relative.     The relative eventually died and his widow stuck it on Ebay for 99p.     From there, it went to the USA, where I presume it still is!   

Bob

[grahamwalker]

Bob hard to see the detail on Bliston Hill (poor photo) on my screen, but your later ship is a lot more refined and your sea  a lot better. I used to scratch build a lot before I had a stroke and now find it hard to model to the higher leavel (one reason I stopped judging at the imps scale modelworld(ships) my reasoning if I could not build as good I had no right to judge others). That said I find your  models astounding as good as JBs. JB = JIm Baeurman(yes spelt wrong; sorry Jim)

[Billydick]

Hard to comment because of the difference in photo quality so I have to go with the Donna Francisca, simply because I can see the quality of the build because, as stated earlier, the difference in photo quality and the angle of the shot as well.  My heart says Bidston Hill though, because I used to live in Bidston years ago as a young boy. 

 

BillyD

[ShipbuilderMN]

Thansk for replies.   Even with the quality of the images above, the Bidston Hill looks quite poor to me for the reason already given.   At the time I built it, however, I thought it was pretty good!

Bob

Edited November 3, 2016 by ShipbuilderMN
Spelling mistake

[SUB-SAM]

He may have been reacting to the fact you had built the model he was selling, some people are just bunny fuggars.

 

[ShipbuilderMN]

He wasn't selling it though - he had just paid over £400 for it plus the delivery costs to USA!

Bob

[ShipbuilderMN]

Over 40 years of improvement and very few can tell the difference!     I think Picaso discovered this years ago.   Initially, he was an excellent painter, but eventually realised he could just throw weird pictures together, make a fortune, and very few could tell the difference!.   Look at this one that I completed  2004 in 36 hours, and it sold for £780 at a London auction.     As the deck is piled up in ice and snow, there was very little detail visible and I didn't like the mahogany case that I had been persuaded to try!

Bob

[Fastcat]

Hi Bob,

             The model of HMS Carcass has a lot of charm and tells a story. Personally, I don't think you should be surprised at the price it achieved - it meant something to the guy who bought it. If you look at it in purely monetary terms, you were paid £21.67 per hour. That's not a huge amount for a very skilled modeller. Think how much the guy who fixes your boiler charges!

 

The guy who bought it clearly didn't have those skills and was prepared to pay a fair price to someone who did.

 

Some years ago I built a number of 1/43 car kits on commission. I put a lot into them and was astounded that people expected to get them for the price of a die-cast and a lot less than a factory built model. One guy stated that he could hardly tell the difference even though it was obvious from just a glance. My attitude was that if they couldn't discern the difference, they should simply buy the die-cast and if they didn't like the price they could bugger off.

 

Don't ever be put off by the views of others. Do what you enjoy and what some of us really do appreciate.

 

Dave

[ShipbuilderMN]

Hi Dave,

Not as simple as that.   I did not get £21.67 an hour for it!    The buyer paid £780 to the auction room (Christie's).    After commission had been deducted, I got £488.73 which was still excellent at £13.57 an hour, but the ever-hungry HMRC were waiting in the background to claim their £97.46, leaving me with £391.27.      Delivery to London was £25, reducing it to £366,27, which gives £10.17 per hour!    Still the highest amount per hour that I have ever received for a model!      I have not even mentioned the building costs.    Not many materials were used for the actual model, but the acrylic for the display case was £3 per square foot, and plywood/fittings for the carrying case about £5.  

I built it at the request of Christie's to go in a specialised Nelson sale (It was Nelson's 2nd ship.)    After building it, It was considered "not suitable" for the specialised sale because "collecters prefer Victory, or Agamemnon."       It was put in a general maritime sale instead where it fetched the above-mentioned £780.

The reason my model shipbuilding came about was the fact that in 1992, I had been at sea for 32 years and had ended up as radio officer aboard the brand new passenger liner RMS St. Helena.       The amount of electronic equipment that I was required to maintain and service, as well as dealing with the communications of shipping company, officers and crew, plus 132 passenger on the UK - Cape Town Mail service, was getting beyond a joke, and wearing me down.      At the age of 48, I had had enough and quit the "rat-race" with voluntary redundancy.      Between late 1992, and my earliest pension age, I scraped a meager income by building and selling model ships, and writing articles and books.      As soon as I got to pension age, I quit the full-time lark, and now it is only a hobby, and I do not accept private commisions from anyone.    Since late 1992, I have completed 270 models, and have rarely made more than £6 or £7 an hour.     Neither do I send them to auctions houses any more, or even advertise them for sale.     (Incidentally, I am currently "sold out", having received payment for the wool clipper this morning, so am not trying to "pimp my wares" here!.      My old models do turn up in auction houses from time to time, and it is usually the same pattern.      Models I sold years ago for teens of pounds often go for hundreds, and the cry always goes up "They are just as good as what you build now!"       I can't help being a bit downcast by this.        Some years ago, I sold a model privately for £400.     The buyer eventually died, and his family sent it to a London saleroom where it went for £3,800!     But one of my last models to an auction house is shown below.    It took 86 hours to build, and I got £345.23 for it after commission deductions.   HMRC syphoned £69 off in tax.    Transport to London was £25, and building costs were £30, reducing it to £221.23 - or £2.51 an hour! 

Bob

 

 

 

 

[Fastcat]

Hi Bob,

              Sorry I thought you'd actually received £780 for your model. Didn't realise that the auction took such a large slice. Makes my comment about skills even more apt. Just think how much they got per hour! Makes eBay a bargain.

Don't think I ever made more than a couple of quid an hour and even then eyebrows would be raised. It's very strange that folks will pay far more at an auction but I think that those who bid appreciate what they're buying whereas a great many just want something for nothing. I stopped doing commission work a good while ago. Never enjoyed it and was glad to stop.

 

I wouldn't get too downcast about the public's judgement of what constitutes a good model. Some competitions have a "peoples choice" of best in show and it often goes totally against the choice made by judges who look for levels of skill (hopefully!) rather than colour or simply subject matter. I overheard one member of the public say that a model was obviously better "because it was a Ferrari"!  Ho, hum..........................

Also a good many folks look at large models and completely ignore little gems. Don't ask me why. I just love your ships, they're real modelling jewels.

 

They say that only true works of art appreciate over time so I'd take heart from that and ignore the rest.

 

Kind regards

Dave 

 

 

[ShipbuilderMN]

Hi Dave,

You are right about private commissions, it ruins all the pleasure of it.    I am always getting requests for them, some even wanting to pay if full before I even begin - can't think of anything worse!      Christie's stopped doing maritime auctions some time ago and the only other one in London has now added a £150 non-refundable charge on just entering a model for sale!      I don't bother with competitions either, and as you again correctly say, small ones tend to get ignored.     Can't complain though because a fair number of collectors are just waiting in the background for me to finish something and then it is a matter of who is the  quickest to get in.      One of my rules is "I am happy to talk about anything to do with the models, as long as it keeps clear of Can I buy it when it is complete? or If you ever think of building.............. I will buy it!"

I once wrote an article for a maritime paper with a photograph of one of my models in it.   Eventually the editor forwarded a letter to me from a reader wanting to purchase it.    He added that he already had one that someone in Preston made for him, and although he was very pleased with it, but he wanted the one illustrated in the aricle as well!     Recognising the name and address, I was able to write back saying, "no need, you purchased it ages ago!"

Bob

[Fastcat]

Hi Bob,

              Great story and very funny!

 

Dave

[grahamwalker]

Bob you will find that the ipms most of the ships that win are 1/700 scale and some are quite small, I remember 1 year judging and in the section we were to judge were two stand out vessels, 1 was a big model (scratchbuilt of Titanic on the sea bed, the other was a small clinker built sail boat, guess which won  the Titanic was fantasic but only got second place

[ShipbuilderMN]

Lucky Titanic, the best I could achieve was "highly commended!"     I gave up entering competitions years ago when I realised that I wasn't even in with a chance!      When I sent them to auctions, my poorest models invariably fetched the highest prices, whilst my best were usually low to mediocre.

I built a Titanic wreck once, but it was a "damp squib" at Christie's.     Since finishing doing private commissions, and just building what I feel like, and then stating what I want for it, I have done much better.       I really prefer to obscure or semi-obscure, and you will not find me building Cutty Sark, Bounty or Victory no matter how popular they are!    

Bob

 

[Martian]

I think the polls says it all!

 

Martian

[ShipbuilderMN]

It doesn't say much, really.   293 had a look, 12 voted, so I suppose the other 281 couldn't tell the difference, and weren't all that bothered either!.

This is the first sailing ship that topped the £1,000 mark at Christie's, but I wasn't expecting it!

[goggsy]

10 hours ago, ShipbuilderMN said:

Hi Dave,

Not as simple as that.   I did not get £21.67 an hour for it!    The buyer paid £780 to the auction room (Christie's).    After commission had been deducted, I got £488.73 which was still excellent at £13.57 an hour, but the ever-hungry HMRC were waiting in the background to claim their £97.46, leaving me with £391.27.      Delivery to London was £25, reducing it to £366,27, which gives £10.17 per hour!    Still the highest amount per hour that I have ever received for a model!      I have not even mentioned the building costs.    Not many materials were used for the actual model, but the acrylic for the display case was £3 per square foot, and plywood/fittings for the carrying case about £5.  

I built it at the request of Christie's to go in a specialised Nelson sale (It was Nelson's 2nd ship.)    After building it, It was considered "not suitable" for the specialised sale because "collecters prefer Victory, or Agamemnon."       It was put in a general maritime sale instead where it fetched the above-mentioned £780.

The reason my model shipbuilding came about was the fact that in 1992, I had been at sea for 32 years and had ended up as radio officer aboard the brand new passenger liner RMS St. Helena.       The amount of electronic equipment that I was required to maintain and service, as well as dealing with the communications of shipping company, officers and crew, plus 132 passenger on the UK - Cape Town Mail service, was getting beyond a joke, and wearing me down.      At the age of 48, I had had enough and quit the "rat-race" with voluntary redundancy.      Between late 1992, and my earliest pension age, I scraped a meager income by building and selling model ships, and writing articles and books.      As soon as I got to pension age, I quit the full-time lark, and now it is only a hobby, and I do not accept private commisions from anyone.    Since late 1992, I have completed 270 models, and have rarely made more than £6 or £7 an hour.     Neither do I send them to auctions houses any more, or even advertise them for sale.     (Incidentally, I am currently "sold out", having received payment for the wool clipper this morning, so am not trying to "pimp my wares" here!.      My old models do turn up in auction houses from time to time, and it is usually the same pattern.      Models I sold years ago for teens of pounds often go for hundreds, and the cry always goes up "They are just as good as what you build now!"       I can't help being a bit downcast by this.        Some years ago, I sold a model privately for £400.     The buyer eventually died, and his family sent it to a London saleroom where it went for £3,800!     But one of my last models to an auction house is shown below.    It took 86 hours to build, and I got £345.23 for it after commission deductions.   HMRC syphoned £69 off in tax.    Transport to London was £25, and building costs were £30, reducing it to £221.23 - or £2.51 an hour! 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

It's a great shame that skill like yours doesn't attract more fiscal reward but I think most people on here (including myself)  would be grateful for a tenth of your modelling ability. You obviously love what you do and it shows in the quality of the work you produce.

[Martian]

I think your HMS Carcass model sold well, not so much for the detail in the model but for the feel of the whole piece. It really conveys the cold of the Arctic.

 

Martian

 

PS: What I meant in my last post was that the fact that over 91% had were of the opinion that your skills had improved and none felt that they had declined answers your question for you, the actual numbers not voting does not really mean much as the number of views a topic gets always far outweighs the number of actual responses.

 

 

[ShipbuilderMN]

Don't get me wrong, it does atract fiscal reward, I am often offered vast sums to build models that I have no interest in, and I always decline them because there would be no pleasure in the building, and I would feel guilty about taking a high price anyway.     I am usually happy with round about the minimum wage, often lower.      I do not claim they are perfect in every detail, I don't have the patience for that sort of thing.     Close-up, you can see errors and faults, but from a foot or more, a general view is fine.      I suppose they are very popular with collectors because because they are relatively low-priced.   Miniatures by McCaffery, Reed, McNarry etc sell for tens of thousands of pounds, but I am light years away from their class.     Nothing so strange as people, when I first left the sea and was open to private commissions, hardly anyone wanted them.     Now that I only build what I want to build, they usually sell shortly after completion and I don't even advertise them beyond putting the  images on my wesbite (blog).       I tend to make more from writing about them than the actual models themselves.       I am quite happy with what I get, and I hand all the proceeds over to my wife anyway, so in the end, it is just the pleasure of building for me!       I do find it rather sad that so few model shipbuilders like building merchant ships when there are an infinite variety of sizes, shapes, colours and designs to choose from.      

Bob

 

[Fastcat]

Same in most areas of the hobby. Military models far outweigh civil stuff for some reason. I don't get it myself but that's the way it is. Most modellers shy away from scratch-building, the kit manufacturers know what sells so they flood the market with military subjects.

And that's why you should never give up posting your work. Sooner or later someone will be inspired to have a go themselves, even if it's built from a kit, it's a start and who knows where it'll lead.

I'm not even a ship modeller but I love looking at your sailing ships, in fact all your work and if I ever get tempted to have a go myself it'll be because of models like these.

 

Dave

[ShipbuilderMN]

I got two e-mails today from modellers who have switched to scratchbuilding miniature merchant ships, and both of them are quite surprised at how smoothly they are getting along.    One from UK, one from Italy!

Bob

[Blastvader]

Just for interest, your £16 in 1973 is now worth £190.

 

Also, I'm probably missing something in HMRC's archaic rules, but why are they taxing you on the results of a private sale? As you say, it's not a commission piece and as such I would have thought that it wouldn't come under the terms of self employment.

 

Your models are all beautiful, absolute perfection in miniature.