Artie Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 Hi all.....I've been reading an old "Camouflage and Markings, No 12" publication about these planes during their first days over mainland UK, and find them extremely interesting. I really liked AH882, KH*R, a RCAF Tomahawk II belonging to N0 403 Squadron, so maybe a next project finds its way onto my workbench. I noticed the plane was painted DG/DE over Sky, sporting a black painted port wing undersurface. Did these planes see any combat, or were they second line machines...???? Did they have any particular feature wich made them stand out from their yank cousins.????? I found an old Hobbycraft kit wich, to my surprise, had been started and the belly bump was corrected, as for an excelent building thread I found at another modelling board. Cheers....!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Morpheus Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) According to Wikipedia (and another source) 403 went from Tomahawk I's to Spits after only 29 sorties - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/403_Helicopter_Operational_Training_Squadron#World_War_II https://rcaf403squadron.wordpress.com/tag/tomahawk-mk-1/ More on RCAF Tomahawks here (again Wiki) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_P-40_Warhawk#Royal_Canadian_Air_Force I know Tomhawks were used extensively in the North African/Mediterranean campaigns by the RAF, and also Burma by the RAF (as well as the AVG) iirc, they may have had that DG/DE scheme for that theater. Don't think they were much different to the US P-40s though, everything I've read indicates that the only difference was a Packard Merlin engine shoved in them, although I think that was the later P-40F onwards, called the Kittyhwak. Someone more knowledgeable will correct me... Edited September 29, 2016 by Raven Morpheus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_c67 Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 For the variations between all the various P-40 types I think this is fairly comprehensive... http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1999/09/stuff_eng_p40.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 Simplifying: Everything after the P-40C was a Kittyhawk in RAF service, a Warhawk in US. The RAF did not use Tomahawks in the Far East - perhaps you are thinking of Buffaloes. The P-40F and later L had the Packard Merlin, but because of its superior performance at medium altitude it was largely retained by the USAAF in the air superiority role, whereas the RAF required the Kittyhawk as a low-level fighter-bomber so mainly received Allison-engined variants. The RAF did have a few units with the Packard Merlin, but not many and mainly later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 28 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: The RAF did not use Tomahawks in the Far East - perhaps you are thinking of Buffaloes. Or maybe P-36 Mohawks? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Morpheus Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Graham Boak said: The RAF did not use Tomahawks in the Far East - perhaps you are thinking of Buffaloes. No I was thinking of the P-40. I thought I read (somewhere reliable) in the past few days whilst looking around for info about the P-40B's at Pearl, that the RAF also had them in Burma. My mistake, I was obviously reading about the AVG. Edited September 30, 2016 by Raven Morpheus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Fair enough. We all make mistakes (and my memory gets worse with each successive year). You are right on one point - the AVG P-40s did wear RAF DE/DG camo on the upper surfaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Tomahawks were used in the MID East (aka "North Africa"). In the UK, they were primarily used to replace Lysanders in Army Cooperation Command, but between some serviceability problems and the demand in the Med (and Russia) they didn't do much besides training before being replaced by the Mustang I. bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 1 hour ago, gingerbob said: Tomahawks were used in the MID East (aka "North Africa"). In the UK, they were primarily used to replace Lysanders in Army Cooperation Command, but between some serviceability problems and the demand in the Med (and Russia) they didn't do much besides training before being replaced by the Mustang I. bob so an almost clean, not much weathered finish would be the way to go.. Taking a look at the scale plans in the AJ Press monographic, I've noticed a small circle under the port wing....Is that a landing light, or just a round panel...???? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 8 hours ago, mhaselden said: - the AVG P-40s did wear RAF DE/DG camo on the upper surfaces. I see what you did there! ;-) Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaddad Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Hi Artie, it seems 403 sqd. flew 23 operational sorties with the Tomahawk so if depicting an operational a/c is one of your criteria for a build it looks like you're ok , cheers, spad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Well.....first thing first: thank you very much for all your info, very helpful indeed. I'm pretty sure I'll try to build it as a RCAF machine.....At first, I was looking for a NMF example, just wanted this kit to be a testbed for the new Vallejo Metalic colours, now available at my LHS. The clean, sporty lines of the Curtiss are a perfect match for a NMF, IMHO. Haven't been able to find any good colour profile or suitable info, just a non explanatory B/W pic.... Moreover, I've found a Trumpeter kit in my stash....apart from the overdone rivet detail, the shallow cockpit floor (thus the ridiculous pilot's seat), is there anything REALLY wrong with that kit..??? I know there's a new Airfix kit around the corner, but my budget is very limited in this moment.... Cheers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_c67 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 I'll have a look through what I've got. Need to charge up my iPad first, but I'm sure I've seen an NMF P-40 recently. Hopefully get back to you later this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) There's a NMF P-40B or C on the UK Airshow circuit (it's the one that Airfix measured up for their forthcoming and eagerly awaited here 1/48th kit), I don't know how many early P-40's were actually operated in NMF, very few I suspect. There were many P-40's operated in the UK in the DG/DE/Sky scheme around 1941/1942 in the Army Co-Operation role, I don't know how many operational sorties they completed before being replaced by Mustangs, they were certainly quite active around that period in developing the tactics for tac reconnaissance. When I get my Airfix kit I'll be doing it as the Winchester "Spitfire Bridge" Spitfire - which was really an RAF Odiham based Tomahawk! I've never heard of RAF P-40's being deployed beyond the Middle East. P-40B and P-40C were Tomahawk in RAF Service. P-40E onwards were Kittyhawks (dunno if the RAF ever got any P-40D's), these were only used in the Middle East and Italy. I do like the cut of a P-40's jib in DG/DE/Sky, some were later used as training aircraft for Bomber units (as attacking forces), many of these had DG/OG/MSG schemes which is also quite an attractive scheme. Edited September 30, 2016 by Wez Got my DSG mixed up for MSG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 What keeps me worried is the so called "sky"......was it a "greyish" hue, as seen on Far East Brewster Buffaloes, or was it a "greenish" tone, as used on Spitfires...??? If we think the planes were painted with DuPont equivalent (or just similar) references, those colours should have been a little diffferent than the RAF originals...What do you think about it..?? Every AVG colour profile I've seen, show a "greyish" underside, while the UK mainland RAF/RCAF examples seem to be painted with the "greenish" one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 I've been meaning to do this for a while, but if FS35622 is close-enough to be a practical match for Du Pont 71-021 (which I've seen written here before, by Nick I believe, so I believe it) then here's the RGB render for FS35622 against our MAP Type S Sky. MAP Type S Sky: FS35622 (which if Nick still agrees is good enough, I'm going to make and call if Du Pont 71-021 Type S Sky Gray: Now just for completeness, here's a render of BS381-101 Sky Blue: 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Morpheus Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) If you want to do a NMF Tomahawk you could argue it's one that's just been shipped to the UK. There's some photos of NMF P-40s in a page kindly linked to by LDSModeller in another thread - http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=269696 Edited September 30, 2016 by Raven Morpheus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 While searching for some info about 403 Sqdn. P40s, I came across this weird airplane: Please, excuse my ignorance, but.......What's that strange aircraft...????? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_Fort Fleet Model 60K Fort. Weird doesn't begin to describe it! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Despite its strange shape, I find it extremely attractive...at least as a modelling project...No 1/48 kit at all, I suppose.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 It's unlikely you're turn up to a model show and find another one there, that's for sure. I've never looked for a kit to be honest, but it doesn't ring any bells in the partially memorised vacform catalogues :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Artie said: While searching for some info about 403 Sqdn. P40s, I came across this weird airplane: Please, excuse my ignorance, but.......What's that strange aircraft...????? The Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum has the last one left in the world and it flies! http://www.warplane.com/aircraft/aircraft-history.aspx?aircraftId=50 Chris 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 If you remove the peculiar (and not standard for the type) object on the wing, it just looks like another of those tandem trainers that appeared when the RAF concluded that it would be a good idea if the instructor could have a good view forwards. Such as the Spitfire Trainer or the Martinet Trainer. Otherwise it is completely conventional. I've a feeling that there is/was a resin kit from Planet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_c67 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 The NMF P-40 I was thinking of is the one currently flown out of Duxford. Apparently the scheme it's currently toting is from based on one that was based in Kansas as a hack for the station commander. http://fighter-collection.com/cft/curtiss-p-40c-n80fr/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJP Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Graham Boak said: If you remove the peculiar (and not standard for the type) object on the wing. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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