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RAF Curtiss Tomahawks...


Artie

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23 hours ago, Artie said:

Taking a look at the scale plans in the AJ Press monographic, I've noticed a small circle under the port wing....Is that a landing light, or just a round panel...????

cheers

 

I think that's a downward identification lamp, but not highly confident.

 

There was a NMF early P-40 in the Panama Canal zone, which looks pretty nifty.  I doubt you'll find a British or Canadian one.

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12 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

 

I think that's a downward identification lamp, but not highly confident.

 

There was a NMF early P-40 in the Panama Canal zone, which looks pretty nifty.  I doubt you'll find a British or Canadian one.

I was originally looking for a NMF USAAC example,  the idea of building her in RCAF colours came later.....I'm still undecided, so if I find a pic of a NMF P40 in USAAC markings, maybe I'll change my mind...

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15 hours ago, Wez said:

I've never heard of RAF P-40's being deployed beyond the Middle East.....

.....some were later used as training aircraft for Bomber units (as attacking forces), many of these had DG/OG/MSG schemes which is also quite an attractive scheme.

 

IIRC also No. 349 (Belgian) Sq. RAF has flown the DFS (DG/OG/SGM) painted Tomahawks between December 1942 and April 1943 in Nigeria - a bit outside of the Middle East :)  

These aircraft sport GE squadron codes and (like the bomber gunnery trainers mentioned by Wez) really look attractive

Cheers

Michael

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2 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

 

IIRC also No. 349 (Belgian) Sq. RAF has flown the DFS (DG/OG/SGM) painted Tomahawks between December 1942 and April 1943 in Nigeria - a bit outside of the Middle East :)  

These aircraft sport GE squadron codes and (like the bomber gunnery trainers mentioned by Wez) really look attractive

Cheers

Michael

 

I'd quite forgotten about those, agreed a little bit outside of the Middle East but probably under the control of that command.  Definitely not the Far East though.

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9 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I suspect not under Middle East command but Air Headquarters West Africa, at Freetown.

 

Guess so yes, I'm not really up on all of the RAF Commands outside of the main ones.

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I don't think this particular one features in many histories!  I had to go looking for a title for it, feeling that ME wouldn't stretch that far.  Its main role was operating the western end of the Takoradi air ferry route, and keeping an eye on the Vichy French activities, with some support to convoys.  It did run to a Hurricane squadron for air defence.

 

I surmise that 349 Sq was formed there because of the nearness of the Belgian Congo.  It didn't last long because its Tomahawks were grounded - old age?, 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't think this particular one features in many histories!  I had to go looking for a title for it, feeling that ME wouldn't stretch that far.  Its main role was operating the western end of the Takoradi air ferry route, and keeping an eye on the Vichy French activities, with some support to convoys.  It did run to a Hurricane squadron for air defence.

 

I surmise that 349 Sq was formed there because of the nearness of the Belgian Congo.  It didn't last long because its Tomahawks were grounded - old age?, 

 

 

 

I don't feel so bad about not knowing of it then!

 

Regarding their Tomahawks, they're more likely to have been grounded for lack of spares and proper maintenance.

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Our "Early P-40s & Tomahawks" sheet has AH882 as well as some other neat schemes... including a natural metal bird. It's available in 1/48 and also 1/72 (with an additional scheme). www.iliad-design.com

Bob

earlyP40.jpg

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On 1/10/2016 at 8:07 AM, Artie said:

What keeps me worried is the so called "sky"......was it a "greyish" hue, as seen on Far East Brewster Buffaloes, or was it a "greenish" tone, as used on Spitfires...???

If we think the planes were painted with DuPont equivalent (or just similar) references, those colours should have been a little diffferent than the RAF originals...What do you think about it..??

Every AVG colour profile I've seen, show a "greyish" underside, while the UK mainland RAF/RCAF examples seem to be painted with the "greenish" one...

 

Hi Artie,

To answer your query on either the Buffalo or the AVG P 40 (to be perfectly clear, I am referring to the 100 or so P 40 airframes alloted to the AVG from an British order destined for the RAF circa 1941).

If you read the below an excerpts quote from an AMO Dec 1940

Quote

AMO A926/40 (12 December 1940)

Aircraft Colouring and Recognition Markings

1.    The following regulations apply to all service aircraft at home and overseas.  Departures from, and additions to, the standard colour schemes and markings are not to be made without prior Air Ministry approval.

..................................

I.         Camouflage Colouring of British Aircraft, including American and Allied Types in use by British Air Forces

5.      Explanation of terms

(i)     Temperate land scheme camouflage. - This consists of two colours DARK GREEN and DARK EARTH.  Aircraft of the Middle East Command are coloured MIDSTONE in place of the DARK GREEN.

................................

(ii) Under-Surfaces.-The colouring of the under-surfaces is to be as follows :-

(a) Operational aircraft.-The under-surfaces of all operational aircraft are to be either black or duck-egg blue, at the discretion of commands, to meet operational requirements.  The following classes of aircraft are to be produced with duck-egg blue (Sky Type “S") under-surfaces:-        

            Day fighters                                 Blenheim bombers

            Army co-operation                      Close support bombers

 

Link here of full AMO to show no deception

RAF Camouflage & Codes

 

Note the Term Duck Egg Blue (Sky Type S)?

339E Buffalo's and P 40's issued to both the RAF and AVG would be in Temperate land Scheme of Dark Earth/Dark Green and Duck Egg Blue aka Sky.

You mention DuPont Paints, this link of mine of which I have the actual colours off an RNZAF P40E-1, shows actual DuPont paints including the lower colour Duck Egg Blue aka Sky- known by the Dupont reference 71-021 Sky Type S- Gray.  Note there is nothing remotely Grey about the Duck Egg Blue, its actual colour is a Very Pale Blue with a Greenish tinge.

P 40 DuPont Colours

 

As far as profiles, I trust them about as far as a wooden frying pan over a fire. I also include a link to a photo I have of AVG P 40's  note the closest one, that colour is not grey, I apologise for the slight distortion (and to my knowledge not film that has been later colourised)

AVG P 40

 

Note this photo of RAF Tomahawks in the UK post delivery - Note the first one being uncrated -just to show colours on arrival, they were not repainted in TLS, but were already painted that way

shot0001.png

 

Note the undersides even in black and white, you can see they are not a grey colour

shot0004.png

shot0002.png

 

Finally just to illustrate and this is by no means scientific, I have put the AVG P 40 in grey scale and note the similararity to the RAF P40's above

Colour AVG P40 in greyscale

 

Hope that helps clarify things for you?

 

Regards

 

Alan

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Just a quick question whilst we have some paint experts here, related to the P-40.

 

I have read a number of discussions regarding the interior, more specifically, the cockpit colour of the P-40.

 

The number of different manufacturers shades I have purchased trying to match this, is quite silly :mental: .

 

Nevertheless my OCD is still not satisfied; it seems it was a unique shade known as 'Curtiss interior green'.

 

I know we can't trust colour film of the era, but have often wondered if this training film shows anywhere near accurate interior colours:

 

 

Does this 'Curtiss interior green' sound correct? If so, could anyone suggest a good match, or is anyone planning on manufacturing this colour :whistle: .

 

Best regards

TonyT

 

PS: Don't want to hijack your thread Artie, happy to remove this. I just thought it might be useful for your build.

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14 minutes ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Just a quick question whilst we have some paint experts here, related to the P-40.

 

I have read a number of discussions regarding the interior, more specifically, the cockpit colour of the P-40.

 

The number of different manufacturers shades I have purchased trying to match this, is quite silly :mental: .

 

Nevertheless my OCD is still not satisfied; it seems it was a unique shade known as 'Curtiss interior green'.

 

I know we can't trust colour film of the era, but have often wondered if this training film shows anywhere near accurate interior colours:

 

 

Does this 'Curtiss interior green' sound correct? If so, could anyone suggest a good match, or is anyone planning on manufacturing this colour :whistle: .

 

Best regards

TonyT

 

PS: Don't want to hijack your thread Artie, happy to remove this. I just thought it might be useful for your build.

 

Hi Tony, are you referring to P 40's in general, or a specific model?

 

The lend lease P 40E-1's when received by the RNZAF and would include those received by the RAAF and E-1models flown in the Pacific by USAAC units eg 68th PS in Tonga would have ANA 611in the cockpit. This version was described as a Blue Green colour not the yellow green colour normally seen.  See attached links.

NZ3009 P40E-1 Control column

 

NZ3009 P 40E-1 Column close up

 

The interior colours outside cockpit were (P40E-1) Zinc Chromate Green, for actual colour see my post above with DuPont colours and see reverse side of swatches.

 

Later versions obviously the US Interior greens we are used to.

 

Hope that helps you some?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

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Things are going faster than I'm able to assimilate....!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thanks a lot, Sirs.....It's amazing such an amount of info, thanks to your knowledge and your predisposition to share it.....

Alan's info regarding B339 and hawk 81 colours, made me get an old build form my stash, a Tamiya Buffalo I was planning to build as a Burma defender...maybe a nice workbench mate for the P40.....!!!!

That way, I'll make the most of those evasive DuPont colour shades....:drink:

 

On the other hand, yesterday morning, during my mandatory visit to my local hobby shop, www.teidehobby.com, I was given a Monogram Tomahakw by my friend and fellow modeller Pablo (the shop owner)....he has been trying a weird way of rescribing old kits, and told me this one was a good "blank canvas" for me to try his method. Needles to say, he's mad about old kits.....he build Monogram, Matchbox, Frog, etc..he doesn't like Tamiya, Eduard or any kind of modern, state of the art, kits.....old school modelling, as he says....

He draws a fine line using the kit's existing raised panel lines, and uses them as a guideline to rescribe a very fine new one. He doesn't remove the original panel lines or tiny rivets, just runs the scribing tool at a 45º angle. It's a painstaking and delicate job, wich leaves something quite similar to overlapping panels,

Today, I'm planning to try his method.....will tell you how it turns out....!!!!

Bye for now...

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Alan: I go along entirely with your basic comments on the AVG P-40s, and their underside colours, but would raise a few points:

Was ANA611 available at the time these aircraft were built?

Converting an original colour image to b&w is a waste of time for comparative purposes, because it will not produce the same effect as an original photo taken on b&w film.  Both will be heavily influenced by the different film stock, exposure, filters, and intermediate printing.

There's no way to tell from a b&w film that a colour is or isn't grey.  If you are working from a restricted colour set (such as often is the case when studying WW2 photos) then it is possible to infer from various pieces of evidence that a colour may be one specific option rather than another, but this will generally be based on the reflectance rather than the hue.

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On 1 October 2016 at 11:27 AM, KRK4m said:

 

IIRC also No. 349 (Belgian) Sq. RAF has flown the DFS (DG/OG/SGM) painted Tomahawks between December 1942 and April 1943 in Nigeria - a bit outside of the Middle East :)  

These aircraft sport GE squadron codes and (like the bomber gunnery trainers mentioned by Wez) really look attractive

Cheers

Michael

DFS seems a bit unlikely. I've seen several AH serials depicted for aircraft of that unit, some of which actually went to Russia, but one example AH972 was late in a batch delivered between Dec 1940 and Sep 1941. It had served at the School of Army Co-operation and 41 OTU before going to 349 Sqn and being struck off charge in Mar 1943. 41 OTU was formed in September 1941 to train Tac-R pilots. The introduction of mixed grey was around mid-Aug 1941 and for day fighters of Fighter Command.

 

One report states that the 349 Sqn Tomahawks had been left crated for almost two years. If AH972 had been crated for overseas delivery after service in 41 OTU it seems improbable that it was re-painted in DFS. As overseas day fighters the Tomahawks should have been in TLS over Azure Blue or Sky which was basically their delivery scheme. The sky fuselage bands and spinners had also been applied to UK-based Tomahawks in TLS so are not a sure indication of DFS.

 

Nick 

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6 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

 

Hi Tony, are you referring to P 40's in general, or a specific model?

 

The lend lease P 40E-1's when received by the RNZAF and would include those received by the RAAF and E-1models flown in the Pacific by USAAC units eg 68th PS in Tonga would have ANA 611in the cockpit. This version was described as a Blue Green colour not the yellow green colour normally seen. 

 

 

Hi Alan

 

ANA 611 was one of the colour standards agreed during the third meeting of the Technical Sub-Committee on Camouflage of the Joint Aircraft Committee (JAC ) on 28 July 1942 and to be implemented immediately although not introduced officially until the issue of Army-Navy Aeronautical (ANA) Bulletin 157 of 28 Sep 1943.   

 

Bulletin 157a of 24 Mar 1944 included a note regarding the Army Air Forces, Bureau of Aeronautics (Navy) and British colours superceded by ANA 611:-

 

"611 is intended for the standardisation of the product obtained by tinting zinc chromate primer, Specification AN-TT-O-656, for shop coat or interior finish purposes."

 

Earlier Curtiss Hawk deliveries including P-40E (e.g. Lt. George E. Preddy's P-40E 41-5509/5559) had interiors finished in a tinted zinc chromate (TZC) which was a lighter, more yellowish looking green somewhat between FS 14255 and 14257 (whereas 611 is a more olive green closer to FS 14151) - despite the fact that for many modellers TZC and Interior Green are synonymous. I have also seen the earlier colour referred to as "Curtiss Yellow Green".

 

The control stick looks more like the British cockpit colour but greens with chromate yellows in them usually darken quite significantly with exposure and age towards more olive looking greens. 

 

Regards

Nick   

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4 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

 

Hi Tony, are you referring to P 40's in general, or a specific model?

 

The lend lease P 40E-1's when received by the RNZAF and would include those received by the RAAF and E-1models flown in the Pacific by USAAC units eg 68th PS in Tonga would have ANA 611in the cockpit. This version was described as a Blue Green colour not the yellow green colour normally seen.  See attached links.

NZ3009 P40E-1 Control column

 

NZ3009 P 40E-1 Column close up

 

The interior colours outside cockpit were (P40E-1) Zinc Chromate Green, for actual colour see my post above with DuPont colours and see reverse side of swatches.

 

Later versions obviously the US Interior greens we are used to.

 

Hope that helps you some?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Alan, many thanks.

I think so, at least for E-1  :confused: . For my general purposes, it may in the sense that I have three RAAF and two US 49th FG 7 FS models all stalled, all P-40 E (although not all E-1). 

 

Still, it's the wider picture I would like to have confirmed, the entire series from Early Hawk 81 to P-40N. For that matter; P-36?

 

I also have RNZAF and RAAF P-40 N and M stalled. Some references say Curtiss Interior Green was only applied from 1942 onwards. Thus.. RNZAF Guadalcanal etc, the rest?

 

http://www.adf-serials.com.au/nz-serials/nzkittyhawk.htm

 

All the conflicting information is quite confusing.

 

For example:

 

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/02/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us_part2.htm

 

Or:

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1133180270

 

Or a little here:

http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/us/cleaverp40e.htm

 

Or here, supporting Curtiss interior  green on P 40 (M?) circa 1943:

 

 

Given that you have proof that an E-1 was in Curtiss interior green, that is something solid at least.

 

I am also personally interested in P 40 D (North Africa), and Tomahawk (same and AVG), but again, it is the wider question for all modellers:

 

Were the P-40 B,C and D pre Curtiss interior green?

 

If so, and the colour was introduced 1942, What colour(a) were the cockpits before?

 

I find the 1942 date hard to believe, It strikes me that your account makes more sense.

 

I have only found rhetorical/non referenced material on all this until now.

 

Again, that you have components from an E-1 (or two?), that is very good to see :) .

 

Artie, this looks like being a very accurate Tomahawk :D 

 

Also, the old Monogram kit is a fun build and great as a 'mule', or just simply to enjoy.

 

Best regards

TonyT

 

Edited by TonyTiger66
To clarify + thank you
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One thing I want to make sure people understand is that it is not an easy job to repaint a cockpit, it requires the removal of all the instruments and fittings, wire bundles and controls - in short it invites a whole bucket load of disturbed systems checks which is not something you'd want to do just because something was slightly the wrong shade of green, the latter fact would be given a stiff ignoring!  So whatever the colour is, it will be the colour that was being used on the production line when the aircraft was built.

 

Cockpits can be repainted but only when they've been completely gutted anyway, what is more likely to happen is that individual parts would be repainted, not necessarily in the same colour as the rest of the interior so it could look like a patchwork of different shades of green.

 

And just before anybody suggests that they may have painted the cockpits one colour for one customer and another for a different customer you might want to think about the logistics of that and the reality of production line manufacturing.

 

Just my two penneth worth!

Edited by Wez
Extra paragraph added
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1 hour ago, Wez said:

And just before anybody suggests that they may have painted the cockpits one colour for one customer and another for a different customer you might want to think about the logistics of that and the reality of production line manufacturing.

 

When they were direct purchase orders, interior colors were indeed specified, at least sometimes.  In the early days, the purchases by the Allies (France/Britain) were far and away the largest volume of production.  There are also plenty of color photos of Curtiss production where it appears (by some serious studiers) that there are significant differences in colors or lack thereof, etc, between Tomahawks and "P-40s" during production.

 

After early '42 (?) when there was a push for simplifying and streamlining production differences, and Lend-Lease had long since kicked in, THEN I would expect the production to be more uniform regardless of ultimate recipient.

 

bob

Edited by gingerbob
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2 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

 

 

 

 this looks like being a very accurate Tomahawk :D 

 

Also, the old Monogram kit is a fun build and great as a 'mule', or just simply to enjoy.

 

 

 

Hi, Tony.......I find the Monogram kit an amazing kit, given its age. Comparing it against both the Hobbycraft and Trumpeter kits, this is my winner by far.....

In fact, the Trumpeter kit is sadly the last in the competition.

The best use I'm finding to the Trump (the kit, not Donald) Tomahawk, is using it as a parts donor for the Monogram kit. Well, just the propeller and undercarriage assemblies, and the small photoetched gunsight, but just because the kit I was given had some missing parts, including one undercarriage leg and a broken propeller pad. Some scratch building around the cokpit area, and that's all...

The Hobbycraft kit is not a bad kit to my modelling level and my limited abilities. I'm not a rivet counter, but felt the need of corecting the wrong shaped belly bump, and to my surprise, that work was already done (following an excelent build by Rafe Morrisey at a "cousin" modelling board from Down Under).....

Anyway, I'm excited waiting for the new Airfix kit, wich I hope will be arriving next month to my local hobby shop....

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