AMB Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 14 hours ago, John Aero said: I'm drawing up the Tiger wings from the Warring dimensioned drawings which will then be set up at the correct span and sweep back angle and the centre sections can be drawn into place. The fuselage drawings which I am quite happy with will then be overlaid and as it's an electric drawing any adjustments can be made as more info comes to light. John John - I'm a little confused that you are doing new drawings, as I have your early Aeroclub Fox Moth kit with vac-formed fuselage and a nice set of plastic (or resin?) wings already produced by you....or is this kit inaccurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 The pattern for the vac Fox Moth fuselage you have was made by me in 1972 (44 years ago!) when Aeroclub was first registered, but I didn't officially trade until 1982 when I left the RAF. The kit was patterned to the only drawings then available which were the 1943 Aeromodeller ones by Eddie Riding. It was intended to use the modified Frog Gipsy Moth wings and the fuselage has stood the tests of time quite well. The injected wings came later and are a little narrow in chord but as the mould for these no longer exists they can be replaced by the very nice new Airfix ones. As in the above posts, my recent researches have shown that all the drawings from the DH three view to Granger, erroneously show a parallel centre section in plan, where the real thing tapers from front to rear with the rear being wider (to accept the Tiger wing root angles). This is difficult to see, which is why no one else noticed it. By re drawing it I can match up the centre section to the accurately drawn wings and establish the correct shape and size. The truth will not be earth shattering and on a model the change is probably but a panel line, now that the Moth fuselage Red Herring, which came from an impeccable source, has been dealt with. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I've just been looking at a fully dimension-ed drawing of the Tiger tailplane and comparing this to the tailplane on the Granger drawing. The Granger drawing which incidentally fits tightly over the original E. J. Riding Aeromodeller drawing for the Fox on my light board is too wide in chord (in both drawings!!!). I'm of the opinion that the Granger drawing takes much of it's basic data from the old Aeromodeller drawing, as both contain the same errors. Another error reflected in the same drawings is the wing rib spacing's. These are shown equal on both wings, which is incorrect. As we have now established that the Fox does indeed use standard Tiger wings, the ribs of which differ on the top and bottom wings and in respective spacing are "all over the shop" to use an old Lancashire term. The rib spacing (on the real thing) is,in a word, "random", I have measured a Tiger wing and I also have a dimension-ed drawing to compliment this. The following two photos illustrate the method used to alter the wing sweep on the lower wings by lengthening the rear spar root metal fitting. First the Tiger. then the Fox (photo kindly supplied by Francis (Kiwi) Chapman) John Tiger Moth and Fox Moth. It doesn't take much to change the sweep back by 2 deg, from the Tigers 5 deg to the Fox's 3 deg. Note the widened walkway. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy wood Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 Those comparative photos are most useful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I'll be back on track with this as soon as I can. The house is chaos as we're having some alterations made which will disrupt things for 3 weeks. I also have a load of photos and info coming from some very helpful contacts in Australia. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy wood Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 No rush mate. plenty of modelling I cam do in the mean time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy wood Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Hello John. Happy New Year! How are the plans going? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supercuber Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) On 9/23/2016 at 11:48 AM, John Aero said: John Oh and the Aeropxy one has a remarkable look to my old vac and injected one, even down to the "ding" on the wing where I dropped a screwdriver on to the wing mould... Sorry to hear this, could you reconsider this statement , after look at these photos , taken during scratch building the Fox Moth parts for Aeropoxy kit, way back in 2008. I'm not even aware of such the Fox Moth Vacformed kit existed , in time i do master parts. Hope you will accept my explanation. RGDS Nenad/Aeropoxy Edited June 22, 2017 by Supercuber 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Dear Sir I have come out of a health induced break from the modelling world to reply to your post. Re your comment about not knowing about the existence of a vacformed Fox Moth kit, I would be interested to know from which publication the photocopied Fox Moth drawing, somewhat hidden behind the "pattern" came from. The drawing behind the Fox is of course the old Aeromodeller DH 60 Moth drawing which is of no consequence. There were no floats in either of my original kits but there were some metal parts. I do have all the original wooden fuselage patterns, the moulds and the styrene wing patterns for the later injected wings and of course the original art works all drawn by me, for my kits. Perhaps you would be kind enough to show us a clear scan of your Fox Moth drawing without the patterns spread over it. Just for clarity you will understand. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supercuber Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Dear Sir, Sorry to hear about your health issues , I hope you get well soon. Regarding drawings source you asked, DH 60 Gipsy Moth drawings are from June 1977 Model Builder Gipsy Moth article and Fox Moth drawings you mentioned are scan from KIWI resin kit instructions , downloaded from the internet , from old Aussie modeller Forum topic. Being small, (600 pix wide) i resize it in Corel and print it in 1/72 scale. Clear enough ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 How interesting. especially the suggested source. Attached is the scan from my kit instruction sheet drawn by me some 35 years ago and of which a number of modellers will have a copy in their collections. I think that some might notice the similarity of the penmanship and style including the particular shading on the wheels. Some dotted chain lines might to have been removed on the drawing you have. Somewhere in my large collection I will have the original artwork which I will try to find. The original artwork IIRC I did in 1/48 scale and was based on work by E.J. Riding. The Kiwi Resin kit is another kit which I think bears a remarkable similarity to my second version of the Fox Moth which had plastic injected wings of which the mould had later suffered slight damage on one upper wing surface. I am hardly bothered to cross swords with anyone over an 'out of production' vac kit of which new research by me shows it contains errors and so to generalise, perhaps I should err to the view 'a copy is a compliment'. Enough said. John Every true craftsman knows his marks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 If Andy Wood is still following this post please accept the woefully late apology for the reply. I have since acquired by chance, a Fox Moth repair manual which reveals the source of the parallel centre sections. It would appear that there was no repair scheme for the top centre section, it's struts and tank because it came as a factory assembled unit and all of the layout plan views in the manual are drawn with the misleading parallel centre sections and not the correct lozenge shape. The unit it's self is not illustrated (certainly in my copy). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 It's having respect for, and giving credit to, original work and its originator. Linked to ideas such as copyright and intellectual property. I realise that such ideas are unfashionable and unpopular, at least on the internet and to the "I want it now, free" kind. Tough. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy wood Posted June 27, 2017 Author Share Posted June 27, 2017 6 hours ago, John Aero said: If Andy Wood is still following this post please accept the woefully late apology for the reply. I have since acquired by chance, a Fox Moth repair manual which reveals the source of the parallel centre sections. It would appear that there was no repair scheme for the top centre section, it's struts and tank because it came as a factory assembled unit and all of the layout plan views in the manual are drawn with the misleading parallel centre sections and not the correct lozenge shape. The unit it's self is not illustrated (certainly in my copy). John Hello John Hope you are well. Yeap, I am still around and following this. Cheers Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I suggest that Thomo removes his post entirely, as not only is it offensive, but it's clearly obvious that his input adds nothing of substance and he hasn't understood the reasoning behind the posts or how it is possible for items to be "borrowed. As a kit manufacturer of some thirty five years I am fairly familiar with such techniques. Thank you Graham for your input. John 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) To get this thread back on track, the following may be interesting. The pull-out drawings are too big to scan even in my copier, but I'll see what else is useful including a nice cockpit layout to incorporate in my drawings. John Edited June 28, 2017 by John Aero Additional information 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTiger66 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) It's good to see you back John. I hope you're feeling a bit better. I did get hold of a copy of Stuart McKay's DH Moths in detail. Thank you for recommending it; a beautiful and very useful book, some superb photographs of Fox (and all) Moths in there, including the Spanish one with floats . Not wanting to wander OT, but I wish there was a 1:72 Leopard Moth kit out there . IMHO DH aircraft of that era are all very elegant. Best regards TonyT Edited June 27, 2017 by TonyTiger66 Scale added 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 10 hours ago, John Aero said: he hasn't understood the reasoning behind the posts or how it is possible for items to be "borrowed. Exactly correct. Those drawings are the same and it's more than likely that Nenad used the Kiwi Wings drawing without realising its origin. Certainly no reason for an offensive post from some third party! John - I am pleased to see you are up and about. I have been trying to get in touch with you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 11 hours ago, John Aero said: I suggest that Thomo removes his post entirely, as not only is it offensive, but it's clearly obvious that his input adds nothing of substance and he hasn't understood the reasoning behind the posts or how it is possible for items to be "borrowed. As a kit manufacturer of some thirty five years I am fairly familiar with such techniques. Thank you Graham for your input. John John I have removed it as it is not suitable for the forum, I will also be having a word. As a draughtsman I can can see those drawings are the same, Julien ps Good to see you back, are you ok now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I said that I would dig out the original drawing and kit patterns for the vac. The Lime wood fuselage patterns were later modified to add the bulged doors and as a result the original Banana Oil surface under the acrylic Red blistered in the spray metal process. The wings are the original sheet styrene patterns for the injection mould and have survived fairly intact the mould process.. The drawings are on draughting paper drawn to 1/48th scale with Mars/Staedtler pens, the drawings were then reduced to 1/72. The fine pencil line under the title was to align the Letraset. John 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTiger66 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 1 hour ago, John Aero said: I said that I would dig out the original drawing and kit patterns for the vac. The Lime wood fuselage patterns were later modified to add the bulged doors and as a result the original Banana Oil surface under the acrylic Red blistered in the spray metal process. The wings are the original sheet styrene patterns for the injection mould and have survived fairly intact the mould process.. The drawings are on draughting paper drawn to 1/48th scale with Mars/Staedtler pens, the drawings were then reduced to 1/72. The fine pencil line under the title was to align the Letraset. John Really beautiful work. Art and design in harmony. Best regards TonyT 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alancmlaird Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Glad you are feeling better, John. Nothing like a mild blast of injustice to get you on your feet. Hope it wasn't the much appreciated long slog to Perth that did you in. I miss the smell of draughting film. The smell of a hot Mac is no substitute. Although the 'undo' button is some compensation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
provencenut Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 On 28.6.2017 at 1:07 AM, TonyTiger66 said: Not wanting to wander OT, but I wish there was a 1:72 Leopard Moth kit out there . IMHO DH aircraft of that era are all very elegant. Best regards TonyT Vami Models once made a 1/72 scale resin kit of DH Leopard Moth. It is a bit crude, but buildable. Regards, Mika Arctic Decals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 8 hours ago, alancmlaird said: Glad you are feeling better, John. Nothing like a mild blast of injustice to get you on your feet. Hope it wasn't the much appreciated long slog to Perth that did you in. I miss the smell of draughting film. The smell of a hot Mac is no substitute. Although the 'undo' button is some compensation! Hi Alan No, Perth was a pleasant change and I was able to fit in some business at the Museum of Flight. My malaise goes back further and is more complex. lots of MRI scans and symptoms which were inconclusive pointed to the basic problem being the stress of trying to run Aeroclub single handed and still do too many things in my mid seventies. Together with the added diverse machinery problems for which there is no engineering backup knowledge or spares anymore except mine own. So the upshot was I had to 'walk away'. My aircraft enthusiasm hasn't dimmed and I found that my historic aircraft research projects and drawings, which had been neglected, became therapeutic and enjoyable and some helpful folk at a couple of National and volunteer museums who have allowed me to go and play with their toys, was serendipity. I've still got a lot to do to wind up Aeroclub and I also provide the domestic backup to Clare's busy career and my loony spaniel. So basically that's where we are at present. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Nice to see the original Fox Moth bits, I still gave that one. I might just pretend I didn't read about the inaccuracies in it, whilst still appreciating this thread. John, whilst I will desperately miss Aeroclub, you need to put your feet up and enjoy your retirement! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now