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Need advice:NorthropT T-38 Talon/ F-5 Differences?


DMC

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Apparently, the Northrop T-38 Talon is/was used as a proficiency trainer for U-2 pilots.  I've seen photos of a tasty looking all black one with red lettering that I'm thinking of as a future project (in 1/48). Question is, am I stuck with the Trumpeter T-38 or is the old Monogram F-5(F) basically the same airframe?

 

Cheers

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The T-38 and F-5 are very different aircraft, lots of subtle and not-so-subtle differences. Intakes, belly, landing gear, wings etc.

 

For a nice and accurate looking T-38 (in 1:48) the only option in my opinion is the Wolfpack kit. Everything else doesn't come close.

 

Jeffrey 

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As Jeffrey said above, go for a Wolfpack kit. 

Www.Wolfpack-d.com

you have several boxings to choose from if you source the decals elsewhere. There basis kit Wp10001 might have what you are looking for already included.

 

Edited by exdraken
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The F-5F is NOT the same airframe at all. In the lineage of the T-38/F-5 series, the T-38 came first, then the F-5A/B and finally the F-5E/F series (the F-20 came after, but never made it to production). Closest F-5 variant to the T-38 would be the F-5B, but even that only gets you about 85 to 90% there. In 1/48, we now have a couple decent kit choices (more on the Trumpeter kit below), but in 1/72 unless you can source a very rare Sword T-38 kit, the only real option is to convert an old Esci F-5B kit into a T-38, scrounging a Hasegawa T-38 nose gear strut in the process (which is the ONLY thing Hasegawa got right for a T-38 in that kit as the rest of it is an F-5B and much inferior to the Esci kit). The F-5E/F series is more like a generation two version of a favorite automobile brand after a body change. I.E. you can recognize both aircraft as coming from the same manufacturer, but there are a lot more differences than similarities.

 

Main differences between the F-5B and T-38A are:

 

Intakes (F-5s are bigger)

Wing LERX: F-5s have an LERX extension on the root. T-38s do not. F-5E/Fs have bigger extension

Leading Edge Flaps: F-5 has them, T-38 only has trailing edge flaps

Airbrake/belly shape: F-5 airbrakes are a little bigger and the housing protrudes out slightly while the T-38 shape is a smoother profile on the underside of the fuselage. 

Nose gear: F-5 uses a wider nose gear tyre and has forks on both sides of the wheel. Nose gear bay also a little different.

Drag Chute housing: F-5 has it at the base of the tail. T-38A does not have a drag chute at all.

Wingtip differences: F-5B mounts either wingtip fuel tanks or Sidewinder missile rails. T-38s have no such items there and just have clean wing tips.
Landing Light: T-38 has it in the nose. F-5A/B has lights under each intake (NASA T-38Ns with radar nose also have intake mounted landing lights)

Cockpit differences: F-5B front and rear panels have a little more instrumentation and a gunsight or HUD (depending on operator) present. T-38's panel is a little less cluttered and it mounts no HUD UNLESS it is an AT-38, then it might have a simple gunsight.

Now concerning T-38 kit choices, the Wolfpack kit is indeed the best if you are doing a T-38A. But, unlike the opinions of other modelers, I am not going to totally discredit the Trumpeter kit. I built one recently and honestly, it wasn't as bad as people have said. I obtained a couple more for my uses due to a couple options only Trumpeter offers at this time (see below).

That being said, it does have some quirks. First of all, the fuselage is about half an inch too long compared to Wolfpack, but it seems to have the proper T-38 shape to it (honestly though, you likely won't notice the length differences unless you park the Trumpeter and Wolfpack kits side by side). The canopies look a little "chopped" relative to what they should be, probably because of the fuselage length issue. But if you keep the canopy open, you aren't going to notice the profile problems at all. Detailing is good and fit is good. In fact, I LOVED how the Trumpeter cockpit fit together as they molded the cockpit inner sidewalls separate from the fuselage halves. So you can build and detail the whole cockpit as a nice unit and it fits perfectly between the fuselage halves.

Fit on the whole was very good IMHO and the only item that seemed obviously not quite right was the nose gear wheel as it is too large in diameter. Thankfully if you do get a Wolfpack kit, it has both styles of nose wheels. So you can scrounge one for a Trumpeter kit if you wish too and not short the Wolfpack kit. The main gear wheels are also a little oversized, but it isn't as noticeable.

Here's my Trumpeter kit, done up as a 9th SRW jet from the SAC days as a proficiency trainer for SR-71 and U-2 pilots. The later 9th RW jets are black.

 

TT38%20SAC3_zpsyseigiod.jpg

 

TT38%20SAC7_zps4aif4wkx.jpg

 

TT38%20SAC2_zpsdxhbwkjz.jpg

Markings I used were a combination of Superscale markings, insignias from a Hawk F-5A kit (Scalemaster printed), USAF titles from Scalemaster and a lot of patience. Concerning whether the Trumpeter kit is oversized or not, I don't entirely think it is since those Scalemaster U.S. Air Force titles on the nose fit just right and they are properly sized for 1/48 scale. The tail crest also fit about right, so I don't think there would be any problems applying aftermarket decals designed for a Wolfpack kit onto a Trumpeter kit unless it is say a Thunderbirds jet. Overall, it looks like a T-38. The only thing I wish Trumpeter did was to mold the retractable landing light under the nose separately (Wolfpack did) as it is far too easy to sand it off the scribes.


Now if your intention is to build a T-38C (kit #2876 only, #2877 marked as a T-38C is really a T-38A) or a NASA T-38N, Trumpeter is currently your only option as they do both of those variants (the NASA jet being marked as a T-38C, kit #02878). Wolfpack apparently has cut molds for C style intakes, panels and exhausts, but hasn't issued a kit for one yet. But Trumpeter to date is the ONLY company to do a current NASA jet with the proper color weather radar nose and they molded it right. All you need to tweak that NASA jet up good and proper is a set of Wolfpack MB Mk 16 ejection seats for the Academy T-50, some rebuild work on the instrument panels (since the T-38C glass cockpit panels are incorrect and even T-38A panels won't work since NASA uses a unique configuration) and representing some det cord on the rear canopy.

Oh BTW, if you plan to do an AT-38B, the T-38C kits also have the unique AT-38 tail base spine on the parts tree (it is not in the T-38A kits). They say to use it in the C, but leave it off and save it for conversion of a T-38A, unless somebody has found evidence of AT-38s converted to the newer intakes.

Edited by JMChladek
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13 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

The T-38 and F-5 are very different aircraft, lots of subtle and not-so-subtle differences. Intakes, belly, landing gear, wings etc.

 

For a nice and accurate looking T-38 (in 1:48) the only option in my opinion is the Wolfpack kit. Everything else doesn't come close.

 

Jeffrey 

 

Thanks, Jeffery, reading up on all the online Wolfpack reviews.  It's just that I thought I might be able to do something with the Monogram F-5.  I like Monogram kits and scratch work. 

13 hours ago, exdraken said:

As Jeffrey said above, go for a Wolfpack kit. 

Www.Wolfpack-d.com

you have several boxings to choose from if you source the decals elsewhere. There basis kit Wp10001 might have what you are looking for already included.

 

 

Thank you, sir, looking into that as we speak.

 

Cheers, guys

 

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8 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

Thanks, Jeffery, reading up on all the online Wolfpack reviews.  It's just that I thought I might be able to do something with the Monogram F-5.  I like Monogram kits and scratch work. 

 

Thank you, sir, looking into that as we speak.

 

Cheers, guys

 

 

The Monogram F-5F is in any case a very nice kit, once rescribed and with some added detail it can give a great model. I'd build this in aggressor markings or in one of the several colourful schemes used by the many foreign users. For a T-38 however, the differences are really a lot, as Jeffrey explained very well. Having a T-38 and F-5F side by side is also a nice way to show the development of the little Northrop aircraft

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Well, Mr Chladek, I am suitability impressed by the length and breadth of your reply.  It'll take a few readings to get my head around it all but having done so, I'm sure I'll be able to make an informed choice.  Terrific job and great photos of your Talon, Sir.  

 

Cheers 

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11 hours ago, DMC said:

Well, Mr Chladek, I am suitability impressed by the length and breadth of your reply.  It'll take a few readings to get my head around it all but having done so, I'm sure I'll be able to make an informed choice.  Terrific job and great photos of your Talon, Sir.  

 

Cheers 

My pleasure. There are some cool things that can be done with the Monogram F-5F. It may not be a T-38, but the F has worn a lot of nice paintjobs. Plus, while everyone typically does the infamous Top Gun MiG-28 with the F-5Es, not as many build the F-5F, of which one was painted in those colors for the movie (with Goose shooting a Polaroid of it). That would be one way to do an F-5F in gloss black anyway. ;)

Edited by JMChladek
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14 hours ago, JMChladek said:

My pleasure. There are some cool things that can be done with the Monogram F-5F. It may not be a T-38, but the F has worn a lot of nice paintjobs. Plus, while everyone typically does the infamous Top Gun MiG-28 with the F-5Es, not as many build the F-5F, of which one was painted in those colors for the movie (with Goose shooting a Polaroid of it). That would be one way to do an F-5F in gloss black anyway. ;)

 

6 hours ago, exdraken said:

some F-5Fs where also equipped with precicion targeting equippemnt for LGBs. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Singapur etc. being users of this system. Targeting was done from the back seat.

 

Thanks, Mr Chladek and exdraken, look as as though a trip to Telford is in the pipeline.  Wasn't sure about going this year but a day trip out of Nottingham is do-able and with what I save on the hotel room I can splurge on plastic. :lol:

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On the Trumpeter T-38, on this linked page you can see some comparisons.  Whether it is enough to bother you, I leave to you.  As for me, I'd make the effort to get the Wolfpack.  After I did those comparisons I got a Sword T-38 (1/48) and initial comparison showed the shape to agree quite well with the Wolfpack, but I haven't done any careful analysis.

 

You could convert an F-5F if you have masochistic tendencies, but unless that's your way, I'd stick with a good kit of the T-38!

 

bob

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58 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

On the Trumpeter T-38, on this linked page you can see some comparisons.  Whether it is enough to bother you, I leave to you.  As for me, I'd make the effort to get the Wolfpack.  After I did those comparisons I got a Sword T-38 (1/48) and initial comparison showed the shape to agree quite well with the Wolfpack, but I haven't done any careful analysis.

 

You could convert an F-5F if you have masochistic tendencies, but unless that's your way, I'd stick with a good kit of the T-38!

 

bob

 

Great link, Bob, right up my street. But I need closure, how did it end? Or have I missed something?

As for being a masochist, well,  yes, probably, but only at my modelling desk. 

 

Cheers

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20 hours ago, gingerbob said:

On the Trumpeter T-38, on this linked page you can see some comparisons.  Whether it is enough to bother you, I leave to you.  As for me, I'd make the effort to get the Wolfpack.  After I did those comparisons I got a Sword T-38 (1/48) and initial comparison showed the shape to agree quite well with the Wolfpack, but I haven't done any careful analysis.

 

You could convert an F-5F if you have masochistic tendencies, but unless that's your way, I'd stick with a good kit of the T-38!

 

bob

 

Isn't the Wolfpack the Sword kit with extra bits added?

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On 9/22/2016 at 11:58 AM, Giorgio N said:

 

No, brand new mainstream injected plastic kit and a very nice one too. If Wolfpack issued a 1/72 kit to the same standard of their 1/48 one I'd buy plenty...

Agreed on that. Even Trumpeter's T-38 scaled down to 1/72 would be worth buying since the relatively minor shape issues aren't as noticeable.

In other news, I recently picked up the Kinetic F-5B and the unique two seater bits they developed for it are very nice. It seems that Kinetic is the ONLY company to correctly represent the aft cockpit windscreen in styrene as neither Wolfpack or Trumpeter did (not that it is easy to see with all the canopy retraction hardware in the way).

I was almost tempted to try converting it into a T-38, but for all the bits that need modification or scrounging, it just is not worth it. Still, if you want a Northrop two seater that carries things that go "boom" this is a good option.

As for Telford, I hope to get back one day as I came across the pond in both 2003 and 2004 to attend (I even took a couple awards for stuff I brought). It might be in the cards for 2017 if I can swing it right. But a lot of things have to happen first.

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Okay, bought a back issue of Model Airplane International, August 2014, that featured both an Italeri 1/32 Starfighter and Trumpeter T-38 build.  Decided to hold off on the T-38 but put in a bid on eBay for a Monogram F-5f Aggressor.  A very nice kit by all accounts, despite its age.  I was the only bidder so got it at a fair price.  Shiny black with red stars maybe?

 

Another question:  Tiger and Aggressor, different airplanes or is the Aggressor just part of the Top Gun nomenclature?

 

Cheers,

 

Dennis

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46 minutes ago, DMC said:

Okay, bought a back issue of Model Airplane International, August 2014, that featured both an Italeri 1/32 Starfighter and Trumpeter T-38 build.  Decided to hold off on the T-38 but put in a bid on eBay for a Monogram F-5f Aggressor.  A very nice kit by all accounts, despite its age.  I was the only bidder so got it at a fair price.  Shiny black with red stars maybe?

 

Another question:  Tiger and Aggressor, different airplanes or is the Aggressor just part of the Top Gun nomenclature?

 

Cheers,

 

Dennis

 

The US "enemy forces" world can look a bit complicated...

First of all there are (or were) both USAF and US Navy units. The term "aggressor" is a generic term for those units that play the enemy in order to provide realistic training. At the same time this term is commonly used to define the USAF squadrons tasked with this role.

Top Gun is a commonly used name for the US Navy Fighter Weapons School, that was the pioneer in the use of "aggressor" training (IIRC Top Gun is also the name of the course provided by USNFWS). In 1996 the school was transferred to NSAWC.

There also were/are a number of other US Navy and USMC units with the same mission, they are not part of Top Gun or the NSAWC but act as adversaries

 

Now speaking of F-5Fs, both USAF and USN units used this variant, although it was more common in the USN. IMHO the USN colour schemes were also more interesting. Not that the USAF ones were bad of course... The problem with some USN schemes is that they were individual and to properly model a certain aircraft it's important to have as many pictures as possible to find the correct scheme

 

Edit: I should add that the T-38 was also used as an aggressor aircraft in the early days of both USN and USAF adversary training

Edited by Giorgio N
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8 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

 

 

Now speaking of F-5Fs, both USAF and USN units used this variant, although it was more common in the USN. IMHO the USN colour schemes were also more interesting. Not that the USAF ones were bad of course... The problem with some USN schemes is that they were individual and to properly model a certain aircraft it's important to have as many pictures as possible to find the correct scheme

 

I would not say the USAF aggressors were boring altogther...

RAF Alconbury used to house an F-5 squadron:

some google images:

https://www.google.at/search?q=f-5+alconbury&biw=1920&bih=977&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbw4merbTPAhWBAMAKHV4NAXwQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=RIezNIpE_V-BqM%3A,

and a teaser from wikipedia:

Three_F-5E_agressors_from_Alconbury_1983

 

 

best,

Werner

Edited by exdraken
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Just be aware when researching F-5s used in dissimilar air combat training is technically the Navy called them "Adversaries" while they were known as "Aggressors" in the US Air Force. Yes, they do close to the same mission, although they approach it a little different.

 

The F-5F is going to limit you primarily to doing USN aircraft if you wish to do an American bird since the USAF Aggressor units as far as I know were only equipped with F-5E single seaters. During times when an F-5F would be used in that role (such as for flying a VIP in the back seat), one would be borrowed from a training unit. Also, during the early 1990s, a few adversary jets started getting modified with F-20 style "duckbill" noses and extended LERX on the wings. Revell of Germany's VFC-111 Sundowners markings for the F-5F kit are/were accurate for the original configuration.

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Here's a shot of a USAF T-38(C?) in Aggressor markings. I don't know it it was actually with an Aggressor unit or if it was a schoolhouse aircraft:

382.jpg

 

3816.jpg

 

Here's my walkaround (such as it is) of the same aircraft.

http://s20.photobucket.com/user/DDonSS3/library/T-38 Talon

 

I'll probably do mine in a NASA scheme:

IMG026.jpg

 

T-38%201aw_zpskara1eq6.jpg

Note the "double bubble" on the canopy that I think a lot of kits miss.

 

More pics here:

http://s20.photobucket.com/user/DDonSS3/library/T-38 NASA

 

All photos taken by me.

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