Rudolf Sinner's Me262 Green 1, colours

[Graham T]

Working on the 1/48 Tamiya Me262A-1a kit & as usual with Tamiya the colour call-outs are for their own range.  The general instructions call for RLM81 & 82 topsides with 76 undersides but can anyone confirm?

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi, Graham T

I presume you are working on green 1, Gruppenkommandeur (double) chevron and vertical third Gruppe bar marked Schwalbe? In their book German jet aces of WWII (Osprey) Hugh Morgan and John Weal describe Sinner's plane camouflage as RLM 81, RLM 83 on topsides. While there is no mentioning of underside colour, RLM 76 sounds like a safe bet. Will check other sources, too. Cheers

Jure

[Jure Miljevic]

I checked few other books and had trouble finding two of them suggesting the same two colours for upper surfaces camouflage. Kagero gives it as RLM 81 and RLM 99 (IIRC, that was overall colour of Avia S.199 post-war fighters), Monogram Close-up suggests RLM 81 and RLM 82. Squadron Walk Around does not list Sinner's fighter colours, but the colour profile of his Me 262 is painted violet brown and medium green, so RLM 81 and RLM 82 or RLM 83 are probable. The BW photo in Me 262 book, published by Aviatic, shows two medium to high contrast colours on top surfaces. Proper Balkenkreuz below plane's left wing almost certainly eliminates natural metal surfaces.

My guesstimate would be the third variation of RLM 81 Braunviolett (one source lists it as FS 30086) for the darker of two topside colours and any of late war Luftwaffe light or medium greens for the lighter one, with a slight inclination towards the first version of RLM 83 Dunkelgrün (FS 34083). Lower surfaces were probably in RLM 76. Pretty vague, I know, but maybe someone else has more precise information. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

RLM 99 was a reference used for anything that didn't have to be any particular colour.  Because Luftwaffe records were kept on punched cards, something had to appear in the appropriate columns.  

 

The colour that has been associated with the Israeli S.199 is RLM 66, supposedly because the Monogram book on Luftwaffe colours was shown to an Israeli veteran, who then identified RLM 66.  Apart from the problems of a single person's memories, there seems to be no suggestion that the veteran was shown any of the other possibilities, such as ex-RAF colours (Green Grey as used for interiors, for example), or any Czech colour.  Therefore I have some doubt in identification of a colour that was little-used prewar, and obsolete even in its constituents by the time it was supposed to have appeared again ten years after its being abandoned.

 

I'm not certain that this is relevant to your post, but bear in mind that the identification of RLM 82 and 83 has exchanged - so an older book speaking of 81/83 may well be referring to the same colours as a more modern one speaking of 81/82.

[Seawinder]

8 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I'm not certain that this is relevant to your post, but bear in mind that the identification of RLM 82 and 83 has exchanged - so an older book speaking of 81/83 may well be referring to the same colours as a more modern one speaking of 81/82.

 

That was my thought as well, especially the Monogram Close-up. However, I checked their call-outs for their book on the Do 335 (published in 1985): it has what they call "Bright Green" correctly labeled as RLM 82.

8 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I'm not certain that this is relevant to your post, but bear in mind that the identification of RLM 82 and 83 has exchanged - so an older book speaking of 81/83 may well be referring to the same colours as a more modern one speaking of 81/82.

 

That was my thought as well, especially the Monogram Close-up. However, I checked their call-outs for their book on the Do 335 (published in 1985): it has what they call "Bright Green" correctly labeled as RLM 82.

[Troy Smith]

this one Graham?

 

 

I'd not be trusting Tamiya too much on this...

 

I know this is a small gif,  but there are enough variances from the photo,  note the stripes run the other way, no tail mottle, and I can't see a JG 7  tail band.

 

Given it's  oddity , by that I mean the diagonal  stripes, I'd not surprised if this was a plane supplied unpainted, or in primer, with a unit applied scheme.

 

That said it   it could be an awful lot of schemes,   But Me262 units  were given the pick of everything, pilots, fuel, protection flights, so they most likely had the 'right' paint.

 

Using  that supposition, remember the late war Luftwaffe schemes are in essence defensive,  for effective ground concealment, note the very low demarcation, possibly dark undersides (seen on Erla built Bf109s for example) note engine cowlings, (which also goes against having the JG 7 band...)

 

this is the NASM Me262, which was very carefully restored in the mid 70's, with paint rubbed back to the original and matched

which would give a similar contrast in B/W

 

 

the specified Me262 scheme was this 

 

and in B/W

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963840-heinz-bars-me-262-red-13/

from this thread

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963840-heinz-bars-me-262-red-13/

 

but by this late in the war 'who knows'  

 

note, while searching up and typing, a couple of posts have come up on 81/82/83....current thinking says 83 might be  a blue for sea camo,

http://theprofilepaintshop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/barracuda-studios-bf109g-10-erla-decals.html

and the 81/82 are either two shades of 81, brown and dark green, or two shades of 82, dark and bright green, FWIW,  the two colour  pics above give a good idea of the 'brown' 81, and the  two green shades mentioned.

 

 

all things considered, and given the high contrast of the two colours in the B/W  pic (the 'brown' may appear darker due to  a camera filter or film type)  and eliminating the use of grey/green variants  for the defensive role,  I'd suggest using the NASM for colour reference, but as you can see, the options are pretty variable!  

 

HTH... ?

 

T

 

PS I have a PDF  of Me262 aces (? I think, it's on another machine) which IIRC  has photos of other JG 7 planes in a similar diagonal scheme.

Can anyone comment further on this or has my brain finally packed up?

 

 

[Troy Smith]

there is a clip of JG7 Me 262 here on youtube, note the variation in schemes, includling some very low demarcations that looks pretty field applied to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB8RKQmmEow

 

note plane White (or yellow) 8 at 0:40 on, note chipped and very matt paint on cowlings, RLM paint usually has a sheen, 

 

ah....here we go

http://luftwaffelovers.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/anti-bomber-pilots-in-defense-of-reich_17.html

 

"In early 1945, the Stabstffel of JG 7 carried out trials using the 21 cm WGr 21 air-toir mortar nd, later, 55 mm R4M rockets. Here, two Me262A-1 as of JG 7, seen at either Brandenburg-Briest or Parchim, have been fitted with mortar tubes. The machine in the foreground, 'Green 1', carries as distinctive diagonally sstriped camouuflage scheme, with markings thought to have been those of the Kommandeur of III./JG 7, Major Rudolf Sinner"

 

which is odd as the stripes run the other way!!!!!!

compare

 

or did the boss have two planes?

Hopefully others will know more on these diagonal striped planes....

 

Just  to back up my theory of unit applied unusual schemes.. this is very non standard

"Messerschmitt Me262A-1a 'Green 3'of the Geschwderstab of JG 7 prepared to move of across the concrete surface at Brandenburg-Briest in February or early march 1945. the aircraft, finished in a relatively rare application of streaked horizontal lines,"

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

Just a morning musing.

 

Could it be that the diagonal stripes go over the whole plane top view? So that seen from above the stripes create "V"s, but to the flight direction? I mean the Me 262 on photo where the cyclist leans on the cowling.

 

And the contrasting colour (a dark green?) might have been chosen purposedly as the camo would be marking at the same time (Kommander winkels)?

 

Venturesome modeller might paint black stripes on green, taking the thought much (too much?) further.

 

 

Please do not take this too seriously.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Edited September 18, 2016 by Kari Lumppio

[FalkeEins]

here's my take with the two greens. The 'Luftwaffe im Focus' 'special' article on Sinner's two machines -with the stripes angled front and then back on the other- concluded that this scheme was indeed most likely to be in two greens. The idea that these might be 'V' shaped is an interesting one though - not so sure about the black, but who knows!. Note no tail mottle as Troy has spotted. All of the Tullis artworks have mottle for some reason ..

 

Rudi Sinner's striped III./JG 7 Me 262

 

 

[Graham T]

Thanks chaps, I'll study these in more detail & make an educated decision.  I also doubted Tamiya's plans regarding a mottled tail but only because I remember building this machine a few years back using (IIRC the Dragon kit) along with a set of aftermarket decals which I am sure I do not remember calling for the tail mottle.