T-33 photo analysis: colors?

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

The following are photos of a T-33 of the Vermont ANG taken in April 1961. I've been trying to determine some of the the colors, which I *believe* were:

-Wingtip tank outer surfaces: Dayglo Orange (?) (or would it be light gray? Or yellow?)

-Antiglare shield: black, not OD green

-Tail tip: ADC light gray (?)

I had originally thought the tip would have been either yellow or red since this unit used yellow as its trim color in the late 50's/early 60's, then changed to red, but it was pointed out that, since this is an unpainted T-33, it likely would have just been regular light gray.

Also, someone on another board pointed out something about the undersides which I think is just shadow, but I'd love to hear YOUR analysis. Thanks folks!

[e8n2]

Fin tip is too dark to be ADC gray, which is a rather light color. I would go more with read based on what you mentioned about the squadron colors. If the outside of the tip tanks were day glo, I would expect to see more of the aircraft finished the same way. Part of the fin and rudder above the serial number could possibly be day glo, but especially with b/w photos it can be very hard to tell. The big "USAF" marking that should be on the underside of the left wing is missing. There is a possibility of ADC gray on the undersides, note how the flattened area of the fuselage leading up to the intake seems to be the same color as the underside, but it could also very well be just shadow. You would really have to find color photos of T-33s from that time period to confirm what areas would have been painted in ADC gray as a corrosion prevention measure.

Later,

Dave

[Jens]

I have yet to see a T-33 with NM upper surfaces and ADC grey lower surfaces, so I don't believe in that theory. I know Danish T-33s (and other Danish aircraft left in NM) were painted with aluminium laquer on the lower surfaces (and sometimes the entire wing surfaces.

As for the fin tip colour I have seen French and Chinese T-33s with a medium/dark grey fin tip, so grey could very well still be the right colour.

If the wing leading edge root stripe is red, red or orange wing tip tank outer halves could be possible too.

Compare it to this one:

http://aircraft-in-focus.com/wp-content/gallery/t33-535979/t-33-53-5979-02.jpg

Jens

[gingerbob]

Is this the same aircraft? (Wrong paint job, but surviving in Vermont!)

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Ugh...why aren't things ever simple? lol

I'm thinking the tank outer surfaces must be lighter than red, the more I look at it...

...and it's the only Vermont T-33 I've seen in bare metal at all, except for a few up-close photos where most of the airframe isn't even visible. Even got one from the 1950's with some sweet nose art, but no way to discern the colors used.... amazingly few photos I've uncovered so far, considering they flew the T-33 from 1954 all the way to the mid 1980's.

[71chally]

I wouldn't say red as you can compare with red of the national insignia, trying to suss colours from B&W images is fraught with issues but I'm wondering (by trying to compare with 'RESCUE' arrow) if undersides and tank outboard colours are a pale yellow?

Edited September 8, 2016 by 71chally

[AMB]

Fin tip is too dark to be ADC gray, which is a rather light color. I would go more with read based on what you mentioned about the squadron colors. If the outside of the tip tanks were day glo, I would expect to see more of the aircraft finished the same way. Part of the fin and rudder above the serial number could possibly be day glo, but especially with b/w photos it can be very hard to tell. The big "USAF" marking that should be on the underside of the left wing is missing. There is a possibility of ADC gray on the undersides, note how the flattened area of the fuselage leading up to the intake seems to be the same color as the underside, but it could also very well be just shadow. You would really have to find color photos of T-33s from that time period to confirm what areas would have been painted in ADC gray as a corrosion prevention measure.

Later,

Dave

I agree that the underside is ADC grey, as some USAF T-33s were painted thus on checking my slide archives. However most USAF T-33s of the era had the outside of their tanks painted orange dayglo only, with no other dayglo on the aircraft, so I would not expect any other area to be dayglo.

i believe the fin is just natural metal - the starboard side is in shadow and the differences in tone on the port side are where some lettering deletion has been scrubbed out as 'ANG' is just about still visible on the port side only. Cockpit anti-glare panel would be OD. Check out my Warpaint book on the T-33 for references.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Could someone show me the way to other T-33's in natural metal with ADC gray undersides? Would like to see and compare....

[Bozothenutter]

I wouldn't say red as you can compare with red of the national insignia, trying to suss colours from B&W images is fraught with issues but I'm wondering (by trying to compare with 'RESCUE' arrow) if undersides and tank outboard colours are a pale yellow?

This....most photographers used either a yellor or orange filter to change the contrast a bit....plays havoc with colour reflection......

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Could anyone direct me toward photos of T-33's with painted undersides and natural metal topsides? Any T-33 search online gives you more information than you'll ever need or have time to go through....

[scotthldr]

This one has some sort of variation

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u455/mam121061/Lockheed%20T-33A-5-LO%20Shooting%20Star_zpsnujkpwah.jpg~original

[Tony Edmundson]

pages 38&39 of Michael O'Leary's "Shooting Star" by Osprey has a 5 FIS T-33 58-610 with ADC undersides. The demarcation line is easy to see and can't be mistaken for reflection or anything else.

There are a few more similar T-birds painted pics in that publication.

Your subject pic does not have ADC undersides IMHO.

Cheers, Tony

Edited September 10, 2016 by Tony Edmundson

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

This one has some sort of variation

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u455/mam121061/Lockheed%20T-33A-5-LO%20Shooting%20Star_zpsnujkpwah.jpg~original

Hmm...compelling....

pages 38&39 of Michael O'Leary's "Shooting Star" by Osprey has a 5 FIS T-33 58-610 with ADC undersides. The demarcation line is easy to see and can't be mistaken for reflection or anything else.

There are a few more similar T-birds painted pics in that publication.

Your subject pic does not have ADC undersides IMHO.

Cheers, Tony

What do you see it as?

I'm starting to feel like I did when I was in the middle of the great USS Arizona color debate....seems like I always fail to choose straightforward subjects....

[71chally]

I'm seeing a similar colour seperation to this Spanish T-33, but not necessarily in that colour and without the paint extending past the engine intake, but similar in the line it takes as it curves up towards the intake http://s967.photobucket.com/user/stipjes/media/100807%20Spanje/1008tripSpanje23.jpg.html

The undersides seem to be painted the same colour as the 'ANG' on the tail - would that be in ADC?

[Tony Edmundson]

Hey, I could be wrong but in the top picture(RH side view), I don't see a demarcation line on the aft section by the tail pipe.

Tony

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Yeah, which is part of why I originally thought it was just shadow and reflection on a shiny metal airframe....

[71chally]

I can, not very distinct, maybe due to lighting, but it's there.

[e8n2]

I am currently reading vol.2 of the Ginter book on S2Fs. In the front section there are a lot of pictures of composite/utility squadron Stoofs that have day glo bands chordwise around the wings. Some of the bands show up as almost white, but at least a very light color compared to regular insignia red. This makes me think that the outside of the tip tanks could be day glo, but again without a color picture it is very hard to definitively say one way or another. Just checking some of my references, namely,"Shooting Stars, Lockheed's Legendary T-Bird" by Michael O'Leary, on page 46 is a color photo of aircraft 56-1712 of the 95 FIS at Dover AFB, Delaware with the undersides painted in ADC gray. The front of the fuselage is blocked from view by the tip tanks (no day glo).

Later,

Dave

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Okay then...after long reflection I think the safest way to go with this will be ADC undersides, DayGlo tank outers, and a red tail tip.

After I finish it, someone will undoubtedly produce full color walkaround photos of it showing something completely different; you know how that goes....

[71chally]

It amazes me at times like this just what seemingly can not be found on the internet.

Not sure if it helps or hinders, but just seen in Googleland that there is a preserved VT ANG F-94 http://s33.photobucket.com/user/n3njeff/media/f-94-2_zps25a7af5b.jpg.html

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Yep, that one's preserved at Burlington (home of the VT ANG, my birth-city). Unfortunately there are a lot of accuracy problems, especially with the black canopy/glare shield/radome.

I recently managed to acquire a sort of "yearbook" from the unit's 30th anniversary, and in it were the best photos I've ever seen of their F-94's, resulting in my attempt in 1/72:

[71chally]

Very nice too!

Must admit after I was thinking yellow, and then seeing the 94 in the same colour made did make me wonder.

Is it worth contacting a VT ANG historian over the T-33 colour scheme?

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

I've tried. There is a VT ANG museum and library, but most of what they have is for aviation in general; turns out I had more than they did regarding, for instance, the unit's F-94's. All they did was refer me to photos of their preserved airframe.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

I'm resurrecting this thread for further discussion due to another question which has arisen for me. Based on the photos in post 1 of the Vermont ANG T-33.

 

Here's another example appearing to show light gray undersides on an otherwise NMF T-33 (look at the sides of the intakes and you'll see; also the gear doors, though they are obscured with shadows). I'm guessing the practice was to lessen the undersides' corrosive exposure? I'm thinking the Vermont bird at the top of this has its gear doors in gray which is partly what has changed my opinion in favor of the gray.

 

But this photo raises a new question for me: what if the Vermont T-33 above has ADC gray for the wing tank outer surfaces as well, like this one, and NOT DayGlo Orange as we've been speculating? Meaning both the undersides and tank outers are the same gray??

 

[Wez]

You could well be right, ADC Gray tanks like the 49FIS jet, but, dayglo orange is equally likely, it is hard to tell from the earlier photos as the there's no discernible tonal difference.

 

I've just googled Vermont Air National Guard T-33 and the earlier photos come up along with an ADC Gray and dayglo EB-57 captioned as a T-33, at the moment I can see no evidence for dayglo on a T-33, happy to be wrong though because dayglo would be far more colourful!