USS Arizona Paint advice needed

[Jaggy]

Hello,

I'm going to be modeling the Arizona, in the navy blue scheme so wonderfully built by Nick.

I'm a bit concerned that the blue will swallow up much detail, and look somewhat monochromatic on the superstructure surfaces where the deck and walls are the same colour.

I'm wondering how I might create a little subtle contrast here? Perhaps the horizontal surfaces should be a slightly lighter tone, as if sun faded... or maybe darker as they get more wear? How have the rest of you kept the surfaces popping despite being so dark?

James

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I'd start with countershading - the schemes almost all involved countershading of some degree. If the term is unfamiliar, it basically means painting the undersides of sticky-outy decks white (unless otherwise directed) to reduce shadows under the protrusions that spoil the camouflage. For a model, this will reflect light a bit better into the darker areas.

The deck blue colours did get a beating and whilst peacetime warships were kept in very good condition, you could get away with some weathering on decks better than weathering on the vertical surfaces.

Lastly, I'd suggest a finish with a bit of a sheen on it.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

There was a massive argument a few years back (mostly on the steelnavy site) as to whether Arizona was painted in Sea Blue or not. Has the issue been conclusively resolved or is it still being debated? I spoke to John Snyder about this and he said at the time, that you can't go wrong with painting it in it's pre-war Dark Grey, as it was certainly painted like that prior to the Pearl Harbour attack, before it was alleged to have been painted Blue. So mine's painted in it's pre war Dark Grey, I just need to get it finished!

thanks

Mike

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I don't believe it ever was resolved Mike. Indeed, the painting guides we list on our site than John wrote lists both options. I'd tend to agree that grey was the safer bet, insomuch as it is definitely correct for some point in time before 7th December 1941, whereas nobody has ever proven to everyones' satisfaction that Arizona ever wore blue paint.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

That's good, no one can say conclusively, that I've painted it incorrectly then!

thanks

Mike

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Mike, among other things I am blessed to be the National Secretary of the USS Arizona Reunion Association, which is the organization formed in the 1970's by the survivors of the USS Arizona, their families and the families of those killed aboard the Arizona. There are 6 survivors remaining as of today, all of them in their 90's. I have been lucky enough to have been their elected secretary since 2006.

First, I can tell you conclusively the decks were unpainted/unstained right up to the end. Bare teakwood on December 7th.

The color issue will never go away for sure. Despite all the arguments online, I can tell you every single survivor I've talked to (many of them now deceased) clearly remembers the crew repainting the ship in a lighter blue color in November '41 when it was in drydock undergoing repairs from its collision with the Oklahoma. They said they remember the 5-gallon buckets being hauled aboard in cargo nets via crane dockside at the drydock, and was distributed in pails all down the line, even getting the mess cooks out to help. They said it was so translucent that it took several coats to cover up the darker color underneath, which had been applied in June.

Lauren Bruner (currently the oldest living survivor) told me he thought they only did the hull and turrets, which does seem to match some of the views of the ship in after-attack photos, the intent being to do the rest later when time permitted, but not everyone agrees with this (Don Stratton, at his same battle station, swears up and down it was the whole ship).

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

So for certain, I've painted her correctly, as she appeared just before drydocked, which is I'm sure what John Snyder was meaning.

I don't think there will ever be conclusive proof as to how exactly she was painted at the time of the Pearl Harbour attack, seeing as survivors seem to disagree. That's the problem with memory! The arguments got way too heated, so I stopped following them, I mean there's clearly evidence that she might have been painted Blue, so people should just make their own minds up and paint their models whichever they think is best. I just went with the 'safe' option, i'll post pics of it on here when it's finally done.

Arizona certainly makes an interesting comparison to my own late grandfather's first ship, he was on while in the RN in WW2, HMS Royal Sovereign. Please pass well wishes on to the survivors of the Arizona from (i'm sure) all of us here on BM and the UK. Maybe people like them could be honoured guests at model shows (if they can get to them).......

thanks

Mike

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Thanks for that Andrew - that's very interesting. It sounds like most could be persuaded that at least some of the ship was blue at the time of the raid, but unless divers are detailed to collect samples from around a war grave to placate model makers it's unlikely that we'll get consensus on exactly how much of Arizona was blue.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

I know, it's enough to drive a guy crazy...except for the fact that ALL of them remember the repaint in lighter blue, only slight disagreement on how MUCH was done. But I have no doubt; their memories are clear and in agreement as to 1) when, and 2) what color.

Lonnie Cook (also one of the last 6) told me a great story about the repainting; apparently he couldn't go on liberty until his assigned area was done. So, he and his buddies did the crappiest throw-on job, by pouring it and spreading it out with mops. He said it dried unevenly, and the next day that area was being cleaned and hosed, and the still-wet patches washed right away...resulting in a chewing-out of epic proportions!!

[Jaggy]

Andrew, I really appreciate your account.

I really did not intend to reopen the blue vs grey debate! For my part it's quite simple. Every other ship on my shelf is grey, this one shall be blue.

So, from what I gather online, the ship in 5S Sea blue used 20B deck blue on as well, which is actually a very grey shade. The two are represented as Vallejo 70.943 (sea blue) and 71.054 (deck blue). So, that's my concern about a monochromatic scheme answered as well. Would this deck color be applied to all walkable surfaces on the superstructure? I foresee some fiddily masking...

I'd attach color swatches but I'm not sure how when posting from an iPad.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Jaggy

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

In lieu of Vallejo chips, here is our 5S Sea Blue, as matched by John Snyder and in accordance with the Snyder & Short chips. Our 20B is post 1942.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0730/0927/products/US07a_1024x1024.jpg?v=1439022809'>https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0730/0927/products/US07a_1024x1024.jpg?v=1439022809

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

So, from what I gather online, the ship in 5S Sea blue used 20B deck blue on as well, which is actually a very grey shade

Actually the Arizona never had blue decks; was always bare teak, all the way up to December 7th.

[Jaggy]

I'm sorry I'm expressing myself poorly.

The wood stays wood, of course. The surfaces I'm talking about are the walkways on the superstructure. The elevated bits, below the white of the spotting tops, above the teak of the deck. Would those have been 20B, or 5S? (My concern here is that if it's all 5s it'll look monochromatic).

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Ohhhhhh!!!! The steel decks. That's outside my expertise, seems like on Modelwarships.com I recall a discussion of whether gray & blue camouflaged US ships would have had steel decks the same color, or a sort of no-slip linoleum of a slightly different color...can't recall how that turned out but I'd love to learn.

[Seahawk]

Logic says that, if in the case of Arizona the repainting of vertical surfaces was such a rushed job (post 9), they would be unlikely to have bothered with the decks.

[Gremlin56]

This is the Trumpeter 1/200th Arizona I built back in 2010:

Took some flak back then for painting her sea blue instead of dark grey. The blue seems more accepted nowadays.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Looks good!

The blue paint debate exploded just before the 65th anniversary, and it all began with one of the survivors I was blessed to know (now deceased), Glenn Lane. He happened to casually mention the new paint job in an interview he was giving the historical crew out at Pearl; he told me he was in charge of the paint locker and so knew as well as anyone. He didn't know the official name (5S) but referred to it as "Mediterranean Blue."

Also at the same time was his stunning revelation of the red turret-tops.

Funny thing is, in the public forum the blue was bitterly debated (to put it nicely) and the red turrets were quickly accepted. With the survivors it was quite the opposite, all of them remembering a November paint-the-ship effort in the new lighter blue color, while the red tops are the point of contention.

I can say that all 3 survivors members of the aviation division (now deceased) clearly remember the red, whereas the rest of the crew either say "absolutely not" or "I never saw that." In defense of the red, it was the airmen who relied upon the turret-tops for recognition and therefore would have noticed more than anyone. As Glenn told me, the 3 ships in Arizona's division all looked very, very similar in the air under various weather conditions (Arizona, Oklahoma & Nevada), and as any carrier pilot will tell you, it's a HUGE embarrassment to land at the wrong ship for recovery.

[Model Monkey]

From purely a modeling perspective, IMHO, whilst 5D gray is a great choice and looks good, the 5S blue will swallow up less detail and is aesthetically pleasing.

For a soon-to-be started 1/350 build, I think I'll go with what the surviving crew members remember, both ship's company and aircrew as a simple way to honor them. Mine will be blue with red turret tops.

I'd like to build Pennsylvania, too. I'd build her 5D with colored turret tops.

[Deadman Disciple]

*Bump* Sorry about this.

 

Im going to to be starting the Mini Hobby Models 1/350 USS Arizona /w a complete Eduard PE set next month after putting it off since 2015 (out of fear) & after SWMBO has told me I cant buy anymore models until ive finished the last of my models I bought then & this is the last kit to do from my stash.

 

Taking this exerpt off the Sovereign Hobbies website:-

 

If you are in the Gray Camp;

For those who believe that USS Arizona had repainted into Measure 11—or some variant thereof—or perhaps even Measure 2A, here are the colours you'll need:

Measure 11 Variant

All vertical surfaces from top of boot-topping to the level of the top of the funnel—5-S Sea Blue (US 07);

All vertical surfaces above the top of the funnel—5-L Light Gray (US 03);

All steel decks and horizontal surfaces—5-D Dark Gray (US 04)*;

All wood decks—Teak (C 01). *On the other hand, there are those who claim that Arizona had painted her wood decks in 20-B Deck Blue (Colourcoats US10) by the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor. If this is the case, then the steel decks & horizontals would also have been in 20-B. You're on your own here!

Boot-topping—Black (C 02);

Underwater hull—Norfolk 65-A Antifouling Red (US 14);

Roofs of turrets 1, 2 and 4—Insignia Red (ACUS 26).

OS2U Kingfisher aircraft—Non-specular Blue-Gray (ACUS 06) over Non-specular Light Gray (ACUS 05).

 

My Nautical understanding is dire, so im sorry to be asking.

 

But what do the first 2 vertical surfaces lines mean?

 

Because im wondering what grey No I should be using for the main hull above the Antifouling Red lower hull & keel?

 

Ive seen the minimum order of 6 tins (as im going to be hairysticking her), but im wondering how many tins of the grey I should buy for the main grey to cover the whole of the Arizona, as again it's 1/350 scale.

 

Cheers in advance,

 

Wayne.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Deadman Disciple

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Hi Wayne

 

I'm not sure how to answer that without it sounding condescending. Vertical surfaces should be obvious as any surface that isn't a deck. The Boot topping is the Black horizontal stripe in the middle of the hull, otherwise known as the waterline. Below the waterline is Red and Above is either Grey or Blue depending on what you want to do. I did my 1/700 Arizona in Grey as there is no doubt it was painted Grey prior to the Pearl Harbour attack.

 

Here is a link to the Ship Camouflage website, which shows you what US Navy ship was painted in what camouflage measure during WW2 and it also explains what colours to use. The answer is that the Grey camouflage on Arizona was Measure 1 and was mostly 5D Dark Grey. http://www.shipcamouflage.com/warship_camouflage.htm

 

I don't model in 1/350 and I didn't even use half a pot (maybe not even a quarter of a pot) of Lifecolor acrylic 5D on my Arizona, so I couldn't answer that but I would guess at maybe 2 tins of colourcoats enamels? Jamie from Sovereign Hobbies would give you a better answer on that, perhaps message him directly?

 

thanks

Mike

[Seahawk]

4 hours ago, Deadman Disciple said:

But what do the first 2 vertical surfaces lines mean?

 

Gremlin56's model illustrates the scheme, though he's plumped for blue vice grey.

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

Here's a real gem someone located a few years back in Navy Archival material, buried where nobody had seen it since who-knows-when. Possibly the last photo taken of her before the attack, she's in drydock completing repairs from the collision with the Oklahoma, photo would be early to mid November '41. Look at the casemate area just above the dirt heaps and you can see what appears to be a lighter shade. Doesn't appear to be lighting either, following the logic of that science.

 

Again, Lauren Bruner told me he thinks they maybe only had time to do the hull and turrets before leaving drydock, intending to finish the job later, which does seem to match some post-destruction photos, especially since the mainmast does appear to be in 5D. Maybe. Last December he told me "Boy, if I had a nickel every time they (the Navy) shoved a paint brush into my hand...."

 

Why is there always a catch, right???

 

Also noteworthy are the "blast bags," on the main armament which are lighter than 5D, but not REALLY light at all.

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

A 1/350 model has 4 times the surface area of a 1/700 model. Given the size of the model and the photo etched brass I'd expect you to get through at least 2 tins of the chosen hull and lower superstructure colour, maybe 3? I airbrush as much as possible myself, using heavily thinned paint as well so the thickness of coats I ultimately apply are far thinner than brush painting so I'd personally err on the side of caution with economies given the expense of postage for paints; or rather it's arguably better use of money to have some extra paint left over at the end than to spend the postage again if you run out, if you see what I mean.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

10 minutes ago, Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy said:

Here's a real gem someone located a few years back in Navy Archival material, buried where nobody had seen it since who-knows-when. Possibly the last photo taken of her before the attack, she's in drydock completing repairs from the collision with the Oklahoma, photo would be early to mid November '41. Look at the casemate area just above the dirt heaps and you can see what appears to be a lighter shade. Doesn't appear to be lighting either, following the logic of that science.

 

Again, Lauren Bruner told me he thinks they maybe only had time to do the hull and turrets before leaving drydock, intending to finish the job later, which does seem to match some post-destruction photos, especially since the mainmast does appear to be in 5D. Maybe. Last December he told me "Boy, if I had a nickel every time they (the Navy) shoved a paint brush into my hand...."

 

Why is there always a catch, right???

 

Also noteworthy are the "blast bags," on the main armament which are lighter than 5D, but not REALLY light at all.

 

 

Great photo!

 

Is it known what colour the cranes were at Pearl Harbor in this photograph? Red?

 

I am wondering if the negative of this photograph is panchromatic or orthochromatic film. Blue would appear lighter and red darker on orthochromatic film whilst grey would remain a relatively true greyscale shade. On panchromatic film red would be lighter and blue darker, which would generally fit with this image depending on the cranes. If the cranes weren't red, this image would appear to be some degree of proof that much of Arizona had indeed been repainted blue before the attack.

 

What's interesting then, is that the turret tops appear broadly the same greyscale shade as the rest of the ship?

[Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy]

8 minutes ago, SovereignHobbies said:

 

Great photo!

 

Is it known what colour the cranes were at Pearl Harbor in this photograph? Red?

 

I am wondering if the negative of this photograph is panchromatic or orthochromatic film. Blue would appear lighter and red darker on orthochromatic film whilst grey would remain a relatively true greyscale shade. On panchromatic film red would be lighter and blue darker, which would generally fit with this image depending on the cranes. If the cranes weren't red, this image would appear to be some degree of proof that much of Arizona had indeed been repainted blue before the attack.

 

I'm afraid I don't know....I think it was just a print found among old papers lost in the vast sea of forgotten archives. The actual photo shows a much larger area, this is just the severely cropped version (trying to find the larger one, can't yet). The guy who found it does research there every year and came across the photo showing the general area of Drydock 1...and as he looked closer his eyes nearly bugged out, realizing which ship it was. Keep in mind it's only the little bit at the bottom which is believed to be in lighter blue, the rest in 5D.

 

I did have to laugh (friendly-like) at your response; not only is there the awful Arizona color debate, but now there's the Pearl Harbor crane color debate!! 

 

Cheers!

Edited February 23, 2017 by Andrew D Jolly Rogers guy