dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Can anyone confirm that the Spitfire JE-J (EN398) as flown by Johnnie Johnson was the 'early' Mk IXc (as Eduard like to call it)? Just thinking of options for the Eduard Royal Class. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 What wing gun blister does it have? Narrow or wide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted September 4, 2016 Author Share Posted September 4, 2016 According to the Hasegawa kit (which is what the JE-J Decals are from) it's the narrow blisters. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy72nd Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Look for pictures of a 402 Sqn bird flown by F/O Keltie, coded AE*B, had Popeye nose art. I believe he turned this bird over WC Johnson. Found one pic that looks like narrow blisters, but it's a bad angle to see clearly. Let google be your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303sqn Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Most likely 'wide'. Photographs of EN459 show it had wide blisters in operational service while EN464 from the same batch, was photographed at the beginning of Feb 1943, factory fresh on its delivery flight, had narrow blisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 According to the Hasegawa kit (which is what the JE-J Decals are from) it's the narrow blisters. thanks Mike The Hasegawa kit has decals for MKxxx (don't remember the numbers), that is, Johnson's second Mk.IX, which had indeed narrow blisters. EN398 had wide blisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 How very confusing! The Hasegawa kit s/n is EN398 and has small blisters. AE-B (EN398) is in the Royal Class set and has large blisters. Eduard state in the painting guide that Johnson flew EN398 for six months after receiving it. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy72nd Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Confusing - No, we have the inter web!?!?! I remember when I built Keltie's Spit (EN398) to use the nose art decals; I found info that he had an early Mk IX. The reference said to use the rounded rudder & early elevators, since I was using the Hassy kit I don't recall how I accomplished the rudder but doing the early balance horns for the elevator was just a putty and re-scribe job. Cannot recall what my reference (& don't remember which) said about the cannon blisters?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PattheCat Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Don't know if you already tried this http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/johnnie-johnsons-spitfire-revisited.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hemsley Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) In the (OOP) book "Spitfire II; The Canadians" by Robert Braken, there's a 3/4 frontal photo (page 36) of Ian Keltie's Mk.IXc ( AE*B ) EN398, taken in March '43. It's the typical 'hero' shot showing Keltie posing between the cowling and the port 2omm cannon, but the photographer's vantage point is raised as if on a ladder, maintenance platform or an embankment. Amongst other things, it shows a good portion of the upper wing. Although not a definitive 'plan view', it does appear the cannon blisters are of the 'narrow' variety. The blister itself clearly appears only behind the 20mm and does not encroach to encompass the area behind the outboard 'stub'. Scott Edited September 5, 2016 by Scott Hemsley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Archer Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Can anyone confirm that the Spitfire JE-J (EN398) as flown by Johnnie Johnson was the 'early' Mk IXc (as Eduard like to call it)? Just thinking of options for the Eduard Royal Class. thanks Mike Hi! Robert Bracken did a lot of research on this aircraft, including speaking with Johnnie Johnson. Here is what he has found: It is an "early" Spitfire F.IX It has the "Cheese Cutter " IFF It has the Mk.XII style carb inlet "Standard" rudder and early elevators It has the covered wheels and it has the larger cannon bulges. It has the fuel cooler Bruce 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad-M Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 I can confirm what Bruce has said. I also have an email from the late Robert Bracken who passed me the same info as Bruce has stated above. HTH Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 On 05/09/2016 at 17:05, Scott Hemsley said: In the (OOP) book "Spitfire II; The Canadians" by Robert Braken, there's a 3/4 frontal photo (page 36) of Ian Keltie's Mk.IXc ( AE*B ) EN398, taken in March '43. It's the typical 'hero' shot showing Keltie posing between the cowling and the port 2omm cannon, but the photographer's vantage point is raised as if on a ladder, maintenance platform or an embankment. Amongst other things, it shows a good portion of the upper wing. Although not a definitive 'plan view', it does appear the cannon blisters are of the 'narrow' variety. The blister itself clearly appears only behind the 20mm and does not encroach to encompass the area behind the outboard 'stub'. Scott This one? Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Ottawa Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Interesting that the 20 mm and inboard 0.303" MG have light-coloured seals (vice red) over the muzzle areas, while the outboard 0.303" seems to have ...nothing(?) to indicate either the red area or the light colour area of the inboard Browning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve in Ottawa Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) . Edited September 17, 2016 by Steve in Ottawa duplicate post - I can't figure out how to delete it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FG2Si Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 I don't know if it would count as a valid reference but the box art for the Tamiya 1/32 MK IX kit has JE-J with the wide cannon blisters. Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Archer Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Steve and All, The blisters are of the large style, it is the angle of the photo which makes them appear to be of the narrow type. Also the outer .303 Brownings were removed. JEJ flew EN398 with the outer guns removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procopius Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Bruce Archer said: Steve and All, The blisters are of the large style, it is the angle of the photo which makes them appear to be of the narrow type. Also the outer .303 Brownings were removed. JEJ flew EN398 with the outer guns removed. Forgive my boldness, but can you cite a source on the latter claim? I've never heard that to be the case, and in any event, the picture is of EN398 when Ian Keltie flew her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FZ6 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Mike, Model Aircraft Monthly ran an article on EN398 in the markings of Johnnie Johnson. If it could be of use I could always scan it for you. Regards, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hemsley Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Navy Bird: Yep, that's the one. I will concede the angle of the photo may've thrown me off, but I would think that even at that angle, the blister would've covered or at least been closer to the outer 'stub'. In the photo, the blister appears to be solely to the rear of the 20mm. with no attempt to cover a wider area. I know in the case of Spits, wing-tips and I suspect, cannon bulges - were not constant. Wing-tips could be changed by ground crew or a maintenance unit. I suspect cannon bulges could and were, as well. Better to go with a (period) photo - if possible. If the photo and profiles conflict, I'd go with what the photo tells you... even if you have to take your best educated guess from the information the photo shows. As a secondary reference, period photos of 'sister' airframes would help to form an educated guess, but in the case of aircraft like a Spitfire where the configuration was known to change as the airframe evolved, I'd still take that as an assumption at best.. To illustrate how the configuration of a Spit's wing was so easily changed, I quote from an email from Robert Bracken (dated Jan.19/05) re his research on 417 Sqn. Mk.VIII's, where he specifically mentions Bert Houle, the CO of 417 Sqn. He goes on to say Bert always flew with the codes AN*A on his aircraft, but he also mentions that official records didn't always show modifications on airframe or markings. And I quote "Bert said he liked his clipped wing Spitfire so much, that he had his Spits in 417 so modified - a brief job for the ground crew." FWIW ... Ron Lowery, who did the profiles for Bracken's book, also spoke with Bert Houle and as a result, illustrated his Mk.VIII with clipped wings. I wonder how many modelling Bert's Spit VIII would even consider clipped wings without photos or the benefit of a 'personal recollection'? The source for that email quote was, I believe, an interview with Bert Houle by Robert Bracken, during the course of researching the book. Don't unconditionally trust 'second-hand' information/profiles. Too many times, modellers have seen flawed research perpetuated by kit mfgrs and 'researchers' over the years to the point where it's considered undisputed fact by the majority. It's been said many times in modelling forums - always go with a photo (photos?) of your subject. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 It might help if the date of the mod to the narrow blister was known - anyone? It doesn't seem to be in Spitfire The History. Yes, the two were nominally interchangeable but if the photo predated the mod, there's be no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 From Edgar's Spitfire notes: "Also, by fall of 1943 at the latest, all surviving Spitfire IXs were getting the narrowchord cannon covers as replacements for the early wide ones." Many thanks to the chap who collated all of Edgar's notes into the single PDF file. His name escapes me at the moment... Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean_M Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 14 hours ago, Navy Bird said: From Edgar's Spitfire notes: "Also, by fall of 1943 at the latest, all surviving Spitfire IXs were getting the narrowchord cannon covers as replacements for the early wide ones." Many thanks to the chap who collated all of Edgar's notes into the single PDF file. His name escapes me at the moment... Cheers, Bill I remember talking to Edgar on the phone about this very issue. I concur with Navy Bird. Where can one get a copy pf the PDF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Jon Bius is the chap who compiled the pdf, this is his site contact, he is a member here as well http://www.agapemodels.com/contact-us/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Sean_M said: I remember talking to Edgar on the phone about this very issue. I concur with Navy Bird. Where can one get a copy pf the PDF? They can be downloaded here: http://www.jonbius.com/edgar-brooks-spitfire-notes/ Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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