ZE419, a Sea King HAS5 that (temporarily) forgot how to fly

[heloman1]

So Crisp, will the rivets be so pronounced or are you planning to subdue them somewhat?

 

Colin

[Red Dot]

Are the rivets raised or just flat round circles please?

 

andy

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Port sponson continued... (as I said, it takes patience because you have to build up the more complex bits slowly):

 

Answering those two questions (which I have only just seen), I plan to subdue them somewhat - but not that much; seen from a reasonable distance (as opposed to in close up in a photo) they don't look as stark.

 

They are raised - proud of the surface - but only a tiny amount. If you run your finger along a row, you can certainly feel them, but they are (I would guess) pretty much in scale, so we're not talking massive bumps here.

 

More soon

 

Crisp

 

P.S. Maybe a better perspective of how prominent the rivets are; this photo was taken on an iPhone 7 from between 18" and 2' away.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[simmerit]

Those rivets look absolutely stunning as does the whole build.  You are embarrassing me into pressing on with the Wokka.  I've been looking at a lego case with 3 parts in the bottom trying to pluck up the energy to start again.

 

Amazing build

[hendie]

2 hours ago, simmerit said:

Those rivets look absolutely stunning as does the whole build.

 

not much more to say is there?

 

 

2 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

P.S. Maybe a better perspective of how prominent the rivets are; this photo was taken on an iPhone 7 from between 18" and 2' away.

 

placed in the appropriate surroundings, that helo is going to be indistinguishable from the real thing.

[Brandy]

At least you had the courtesy to blindfold her before the op.......

 

Ian

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

The blindfold is because - as you can see from the patches of filler - I still haven't got the nose entirely to my liking and ready for sealing / rivets.

 

To make it truly indistinguishable, it's going to need a lot of drip trays!  Actually, joking aside, there won't be drip trays because it's going to be modelled on deck.  I am, however, mulling over in my mind how to make convincing scale chain lashings.  PE 1/350 anchor cable is my current candidate, but I haven't yet got as far as digging some out of my Ark Royal stash to assess size.  [Ark will not suffer; I have yards of the stuff!]

[perdu]

Oh dammit, chains!

 

The unwelcome thought has just strucken me, will the Wasp be chained to a type 22? Or will it be strapped down?

 

Oh well time will tell 

 

I worried about the rivets being the wrong colour but looking at the pictures the rivets simply 'are' rather than showing as a colour

 

It might have been nice to choose from rivets in 'light' or rivets in 'dark' but I don't really think it will be an issue

 

Im still considering using the rivets I bought in a Crisp inspired panic all those months ago on my HC4

 

At the moment this is a wonder of the modelling world, truly amazing

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Bill

 

[I'm assuming you mean either Type 12 or Type 21, though isn't your Wopse Achilles'?  In which case Leander...]

 

Anyway...

 

Could be either chains or nylon lashings with equal plausibility.  For my scenario - cab in Fly 1 (alongside the island), fully buttoned up for the night with ECU blanks at both ends, folded tail and Forth Road Bridge gear, then chains are more realistic cos the FRB would only be fitted for a prolonged stay, like overnight.  If the aircraft were parked there for a shorter time they'd probably only fit tip socks, and they wouldn't fold the tail if they could get away without - and in that position nylon lashings are plausible, cos it might only be there for a few minutes.  

 

A Wasp simply wouldn't be left on deck overnight; a frigate deck is much too exposed and low to the sea, so the poor thing would get majorly goffered (hit by a wave), which doesn't do aircraft any good at all.  They were regularly lashed down on deck, of course, for a while - and if that while was likely to be a longish one, they sometimes moved the cab forward until its nose was just inside the hangar and only approx the rotor head backwards exposed to the elements.  Standard would be eight nylon lashings, going down to four for a relatively short period as the aircrew manned up (unless it was very rough).  In the hangar, 4 to 8 chains to supplement the nylons, depending on the weather and forecast weather.

 

In short, I think you would be perfectly justified in only modelling nylon lashings, which are the white, flat ones (at least they start off that colour!) -  as it might be, made from strips of lead or masking tape.  1/72 chain lashings would be really hard to do, and anyway your aircraft would not look odd without them.  

 

Examples:

 

8 nylons (my Broadsword cab on RFA Tidespring in 1990, parked cross deck to avoid fouling the spot for other aircraft - and anyway our second cab is in the hangar))

 

4 nylons (same aircraft, but this time in the middle of changing a Main Rotor Gear Box at Ascension Island) - the harpoon deck lock would have been engaged - not an option on an RFA - and you can also see that the "Mangler" has been left attached to the nose wheel).  Yours truly leaning against the aircraft.

 

Sea King 6 nylons (could be 8, but I can only see 2 at the back end); Toom lots of chains!

 

Nearest Junglie cab 8 nylons; Flight Deck Crane and another HU4 in Fly One with chains - Ark at a buoy in Greenwich (long after my time).  

[Those of you who followed the - as yet not fully resolved - saga of the hugely overscale Airfix crane in my Ark build will understand why I have this picture to hand!]

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[perdu]

Yes it is to be the Leander Achilles  Oops

 

Thank you Crisp, a great exposition of the lashings

 

I was intending going for white straps initially

 

YOU panicked me

 

All his fault chaps

 

 

 

ta mate/sir

[keefr22]

These are (to me anyway!) a little pricey, and they're also designed for USN carriers so I have no idea how close they are to RN stuff, but they do look fairly nice (although we all know piccies can be deceiving!) There are a number of different sets listed (including 1/72 Bill...!!)

 

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/aircraft-accessories/products/imp-48001r1-infini-model-modern-us-navy-1-48-tie-down-point-set

 

Keith

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Those don't look bad, actually.  The tie-down points are wrong for the RN, but ours as relatively simple to model.  The chain lashings are closer, and certainly look as though they could be modified to look good as RN ones.  

 

You may just have cost me some money - though I am still some weeks away from getting anywhere near lashings!

[Jessica]

Are those all parked facing aft in that photo? Would that be due to facing into a prevailing wind, or just the Flight Deck Officer's perverse whims?

[Pete in Lincs]

Excellent pictures, Crisp.

And more nice rivets.

 

Is it too late to say "Broadsword calling Danny boy"?

(A favourite flim of mine)

[71chally]

Lashings of great photos there!

 

Incredible work on the Sea King, looks just so.  Really appreciating the realism of that grey finish.

Some patience for sure!

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

3 hours ago, Jessica said:

Are those all parked facing aft in that photo? Would that be due to facing into a prevailing wind, or just the Flight Deck Officer's perverse whims?

 

Prevailing wind, yes; she's parked between two buoys (so she doesn't swing in the tide) at Greenwich.  The wind must have been from astern that day.

[Richard E]

6 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Those don't look bad, actually.  The tie-down points are wrong for the RN, but ours as relatively simple to model.  The chain lashings are closer, and certainly look as though they could be modified to look good as RN ones.  

 

You may just have cost me some money - though I am still some weeks away from getting anywhere near lashings!

 

Would this chain from Reedoak work as an alternative: Reedoak Chain ?

[hendie]

edited.... oops learn to read before posting 

 

sorry  

Edited April 25, 2017 by hendie

[Jessica]

2 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 

Prevailing wind, yes; she's parked between two buoys (so she doesn't swing in the tide) at Greenwich.  The wind must have been from astern that day.

 

"Moored", dear lad, Moored. You don't "park" a ship

Grumblemuttermumble these aviation types anyway. Must be the lack of oxygen they get up there which affects them mumblemuttergrumble.

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

12 hours ago, Jessica said:

 

"Moored", dear lad, Moored. You don't "park" a ship

Grumblemuttermumble these aviation types anyway. Must be the lack of oxygen they get up there which affects them mumblemuttergrumble.

 

I drove a ship too, dear lass.  Or "commanded", if you insist on correct terminology.  

 

Muttergrumblemutter lack of oxygen?  In a helicopter at 200' & below.  Rarefied atmosphere in the colonies, clearly muttergrumblemutter

 

[You are, of course, entirely correct!  Moored, schmoored, parked, whatever...]

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

8 hours ago, Richard E said:

 

Would this chain from Reedoak work as an alternative: Reedoak Chain ?

 

It might.  To be honest, it's not the chain that's the issue, cos there are options (as you kindly demonstrate).  The difficulty with modelling chain lashings is the device used to keep them tight, which is hard to reproduce convincingly.  Inevitably, the USN uses a different model to the RN...

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[perdu]

 Extremely dopey intro taken away, some days I'm dafter than a daft person being very...

Daft

 

Those great explanatory pictures help a lot, just the odd extra exposition invited if you wouldn't mind

 

The hooky things on the floor of the boat, are they hinged lift up rings or would they be a fixed hook lying flat to the deck in a recess?

 

Are there adjusting ratchets on the straps or just self gripping sleeves?

 

I love this stuff, the minutiae of things

 

Thinking ont'it it might be too little by far to model in 'proper scale' so I'll see how it goes

Edited April 26, 2017 by perdu

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

The deck attachments are loops (called "ringbolts") that are inset into the deck on an RN ship (USN version is a sort of inset cross bar, though the function is identical).  The UK loops lie flat inside their little hole until used.  Both kinds of strop have a simple hook at one end, which is what goes into the ringbolt.  You can see it pretty clearly in the Lynx shot below (ZD260 on board Tidespring again, from a different angle).

 

 

The arrangment at the top is rather harder to see.  There is another hook, which attaches to the tie-down point on the aircraft; the hook is part of a metal buckle thingy (hard to describe - if it has an official title I can't remember what it is!), through which the nylon lashing passes.  You then pull the lashing as tight as possible, and the buckle locks it in place.  It is often made harder to see in photographs, because the standard practice was to tuck any excess lashing under the buckle out of the way - you can see that in the lashing under the nose to the left of the pic above, and the port stub-wing of the pic below; the excess is dangling down.  You might be able to pick it out more clearly in the lower photo (Nige Bowen, my Looker, looking about 11 and posing next to ZD260 before we went flying some time in 1991).

 

 

There are two nylon lashings visible directly under the "201" marking [our flight number, with a red Broadsword stabbed through it].  You can just about see the buckle thingy on the right hand nose lashing as we look, and again on the port stub-wing.

[We had to replace the port windscreen after a minor birdstrike, which is why the surround is an odd colour - the sealant has yet to be painted Pusser's Grey.  The windscreen is load-bearing on a Lynx, so you definitely do not want to fly with even a small crack.]

 

I have really struggled to find a photo of chain lashings in action; I had to go all the way back to an AEW Gannet on Ark Royal 4!  

 

Same deal at the bottom; a hook attached to the ringbolt.  The top hook is part of a cylindrical screw jack, through which the chain is passed and locked in place; you then use the screw jack to tighten up the lashing the last bit.  Probably the clearest one in this photo is the one to the very left of the shot, which must run to the starboard u/c leg.  You can also see that excess chain is harder to stow neatly!  

 

I love the high tech device used to prevent the airscrews from windmilling...  

 

Aircrew rarely handled lashings, for pretty obvious reasons.  You need a Grubber (even better, a Chockhead, but I don't think we have any of those on this forum).

 

@moaning dolphin  Have I missed anything, or am I talking nonsense anywhere?

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[bzn20]

Those cylindrical screw jacks..Look like what we called QRTs Quick Release Tensioners. Usually used for tie downs with chains on Airfreight pallets,Con Decks etc. Does it have a claw that opens/ shuts at one end ,chain lock at the other?

[xffw45343tg]

41 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I love the high tech device used to prevent the airscrews from windmilling...  

 

I read somewhere that the equivalent for the Harrier is the lowly broom handle. Am I right in thinking that you don't want the engine windmilling because there isn't sufficient oil pressure to protect the bearings? Or just because it is irritatingly noisy?