KRK4m Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 (edited) Of course the use of Hurricanes Mk.IIB/C/D and Mk.IV in the CBI theatre is well documented, but at least three RAF squadrons (Nos. 30, 258 and 261) are supposed to fight the Japanese over Ceylon using the Hurricane Mk.I. Are there any photos existing to confirm this? Cheers Michael Edited August 11, 2016 by KRK4m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody37 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 There is a book called 'hurricane over the jungle' by Terence Kelly that has some photos in from his days there, a good read. He was in 258sqn. Without a deeper scan of the book, I don't know if it mentions mk.1s but does mention ii's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 A handful of Mk.Is were briefly - very briefly - used to restock 136 sq at Akyab in the final stages of the Burma retreat. They were also used in similarly small numbers on Ceylon to fill the ranks of the reformed 258 Sq., prior to the Japanese attack there. These two (primarily) and other units (entirely) used the Mk.IIb. 30 and 261 were the other two units on Ceylon. Kelly's book(s) describe actions in Java/Sumatra. The Hurricanes used there were entirely Mk.IIb. The source you need is Bloody Shambles vol 2, by Chris Shores, Brian Cull and Yasuho Izawa. It is possible to identify most (if not all) of the Mk.Is by serial but I know of no photograph. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celt Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I did not know mk1s were used against Japan, I thought it was the later marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 It is pretty clear that they were not intended to be so used, but scraped together in desperate times to make up numbers, and comments are made on their poor condition. One example is recorded as being with 261 Sq, possibly as a hack. Nine aircraft were apparently with 136 Sq, seven with 258 (one quoted serial is incorrect). There may have been others in India in reserve or for the intended formation of an OTU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Quit a few Mk.I`s were used by training units in India and to equip units working up on the Hurricane prior to moving to the front line with new Mk.II`s, especially those units from the Indian Air Force. The surviving Battle of Britain veteran Mk.I now at Old Warden was sent to India and recovered from that country, although it appears to have remained unissued in that theatre and remained in its packing case. Cheers Tony 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Callahan Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 When you're discussing Mk 1 Hurricanes in this context, are you talking ragwing or metal wing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 All were metal wing by this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 According to my sources (2nd class perhaps as I live 1,500 miles from the UK) No.30 Sq. used several Mk.Is (along the Mk.IIs of course) on Ceylon between March and August 1942. No Mk.Is are listed as used by No. 136 Sq. (only Mk.IIA, B and C), whereas several Mk.Is (along the Mk.IIBs) in No.258 Sq. defended Ceylon between March 1942 and January 1943 (!). Also on Ceylon No.261 Sq.probably have used the Mk.Is between March and May 1942. All these planes were destined to defend Singapore (so perhaps they featured dust filters and Sky Blue undersides), but the ships carrying them turned to Colombo due to the Malayan disaster. Cheers Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 It is certainly possible that other Mk.Is were used on Ceylon after the Japanese attacks, as I was restricting my comments to those which actually had to fight (if not necessarily all got off the ground). Plus, as Tony says, there were more in the Indian OTU. The first Hurricanes delivered to Ceylon were eight ferried down from Karachi by 136 Sq pilots, forming K Squadron. Presumably these were Mk.IIb diverted from Burma, but they could have been Mk.Is. K Sq, became 131 Sq but another 131 Sq had been formed in the UK so it then became G Squadron and finally 258 Sq., by which time it had ten Mk.IIb and seven Mk.Is. Photos of the Mk.IIb show tropical filters, as usual for all overseas Hurricanes. 136 Sq was reformed at Akyab by 16th March, with nine Mk.Is and one Mk.IIb. Akyab became the prime target for the IJAAF on 23rd March, after the effective suppression of Magwe, After this 136 Sq received eight Mk.IIB from 17 Sq.'s B Flight. The IJAAF struck again on 24th. By the 26th only two Hurricanes remained servicable, so evacuation back to India was ordered. Six flyable but non-combatworthy Hurricanes flew out. The IJAAF struck again on the 27th, destroying seven on the ground and shooting down one. It is generally not clear which of these were Mk.Is and which Mk.IIs. There has been earlier discussion in this forum regarding Hurricanes in Burma, and this included a photo of 136's readiness board, showing some serials of Mk.Is. It is my belief that this photo was taken after the unit reformed in India, judging from those serials present - and absent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 (edited) There has been earlier discussion in this forum regarding Hurricanes in Burma, and this included a photo of 136's readiness board, showing some serials of Mk.Is. It is my belief that this photo was taken after the unit reformed in India, judging from those serials present - and absent. Yes, I remember that. Of course all the V.... (including V7673 and V7758) and W.... were Mk.Is, but what about the Z4686...5693 block - were the Z4691 and 4762 still Mk.Is or early Mk.IIs ? Cheers Michael Edited August 13, 2016 by KRK4m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Yes, these were Mk.Is. I don't have the precise range immediately to hand, but the Z4xxx were Mk.Is. Other Zxxxx serials were Mk.IIs. 136 Sq examples were Z4111, '365, '637, '650, and 691. + 2 unknowns. 258 Sq examples were Z4227, '247, '372, '561 and three unknowns. ZA983 is quoted but is in a black-out block. The 261 Sq a/c was Z4762 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Callahan Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 All were metal wing by this stage. Thanks Graham. C'mon, Airfix, announce that metal wing Mk 1! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted August 12, 2016 Author Share Posted August 12, 2016 (edited) Yes, these were Mk.Is. I don't have the precise range immediately to hand, but the Z4xxx were Mk.Is. Other Zxxxx serials were Mk.IIs. eve 136 Sq examples were Z4111, '365, '637, '650, and 691. + 2 unknowns. 258 Sq examples were Z4227, '247, '372, '561 and three unknowns. ZA983 is quoted but is in a black-out block. The 261 Sq a/c was Z4762 This huge block of some THREE THOUSAND Z... Hurricanes always looked strange for me. The Z2308-4018 were Mk.IIs, on the other hand Z4022-4652 and even Z6983-7162 were Mk.Is. But what about the Z4686-5693 block? Does anybody have a precise listing? Cheers Michael Edited August 13, 2016 by KRK4m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob85 Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 (edited) http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/RAF-Fighter-Pilots-Over-Burma-Paperback/p/6058 There are some great reference pictures for Burma based aircraft in this. If memory serves it has a lot of mk i's in the first part of the book for the early war. And it's just a cracking book..... Hope that help, sorry I can't give more info it's been a while since I had the book out for the library Cheers Rob Edited August 13, 2016 by rob85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted August 14, 2016 Author Share Posted August 14, 2016 Thank you Rob, I've seen this book already - also in the library. But IIRC all the Hurricanes pictured there were (various) Mk.IIs and Mk.IVs. The Far Eastern RAF Mk.I is something I look for since (at least) the 1990s. Cheers Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 The Zxxxx serial block for Hurricanes was split between two production lines. Hawkers at Brooklands/Langley were the first to convert to the Mk.II, whilst Glosters at Hucclecote continued to produce the Mk.I. Presumably this was for supply reasons regarding the Merlin III and XX, and/or the time taken to build and install a second set of production jigs and tools for the Mk.II. Gloster Mk.Is in this range ran from Z4022 to Z4939, after which Gloster switched to Mk.IIs. The batch from Z6983 were built by Canadian Car and Foundry, with an even better reason for an apparently late delivery. More generally, serial blocks were often allocated well in advance of build, and allocation to different marks changed on many occasions PS Thanks for getting me to look in the AB books, as I've found another Burma Mk.I X4928 which I'd missed. Probably 136 Sq at Akyab (No Further Details after 1.4.42, so probably not in Ceylon.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug A Jones Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Are there any code - serial marry-ups for the Ceylon or Akyab Mk I's? Cheers Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 No. Or at least, none in anything I've seen. Given the pressure of the times, it is more than likely that the Akyab ones weren't carrying codes, even individual ones, at least not until the survivors returned to India. I'd expect the ones in Ceylon to, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug A Jones Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 Thanks Graham. So X4928 at Akyab in TLS would be a contender for a code-less Mk 1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 Certainly a contender: I doubt that they carried codes, but I know of no evidence either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Hello Michael, this thread: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234999821-burma-hurricanes-in-desert-camouflage/page-2?hl=woodpeckers#entry2312799 includes some discusion on Mk.Is Post #24 provides a link to No.136 Sqn Facebook page that might be of interest to you. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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