PhantomBigStu Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Been bugging me for a while, always have finished my RAF camoflage in gloss, but heard that there were two different finishes to the real things either side of the 70's? Am I correct, and if so would a satin varnish be satin varnish like W&N satin be suitable. Here are two of mine both finished with Aqua gloss, an 80s phantom and 60s hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 A matt finish was introduced in the early 70s, Dennis (Sloegin57) is the man to ask, as he was there at the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I remember this as being coincident with the wrap-round camouflage and red/blue roundels. I was at Dunsfold 1970/71, where the Harriers had gloss finish with Light Aircraft Grey undersides and red/white/blue roundels. It was shortly after that that the wrap-round was introduced. I'm afraid that your 1980s Phantom needs a coat of matt (or satin) varnish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Although the low-visibility "tactical" red and blue roundels were introduced in around 1973-'74 it was still possible to see aicraft wearing them with a gloss finish; I think some of the Vulcans and second-line Canberras were finished thus. Even with the hard-wearing polyurethane paints in use the finish could wear to a satin or matt finish over time, depending on role, location, environment and a host of other factors. I've seen a number of photos of XV495 which show that she was matt finished at the time that the shark mouth marking was applied. (Ian Allan, Modern Combat Aircraft F-4 Phantom). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Several different DTD painting schemes were introduced from 1969 to 1972 as a result of developments in paint and coatings technology, including both matt and gloss finishes. The original post-war High Gloss finishing scheme was gradually superceded by other methodologies and in 1979 a strippable acrylic scheme was introduced that could be matt or gloss "or at least semi-gloss and capable of being polished to give a highly glossy surface without detriment to the life of the scheme or protection it affords the metal". This scheme could be removed and re-applied without affecting the underlying primer coats. Whilst the technical documents describe the different schemes, the paint colours and their application methods in great detail they do not specify which aircraft/units were to use which scheme or in what circumstances. The specific DTD would have been referred to in contracts, manufacturers specifications and command instructions. What is clear is that it wasn't simply a binary evolution of gloss followed by matt. I'd list the schemes here but they are a bit meaningless in modelling terms. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 (edited) I remember this as being coincident with the wrap-round camouflage and red/blue roundels. I was at Dunsfold 1970/71, where the Harriers had gloss finish with Light Aircraft Grey undersides and red/white/blue roundels. It was shortly after that that the wrap-round was introduced. I'm afraid that your 1980s Phantom needs a coat of matt (or satin) varnish. The wrap round started to appear mid 70s (after the Jaguar entered service), the matt finish and tactical roundels started to appear earlier, but it wasn't universal - you even got airframes with replacement parts where one was glossy and the other matt! However the general rule is red/blue roundels, most likely matt Trying to recall if there was mention of a matt clear coat applied in-service, something rings a bell about that. This si a great site for period RAF photos which should ghive some help: http://sg-etuo.de/ e.g.: http://sg-etuo.de/Visiting-Aircraft/RAF-No41-Sqn Edited August 10, 2016 by Dave Fleming 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 (edited) It's a lot easier to repaint roundels, so they'd likely to be done as soon as the orders came through, whereas the aircraft would wait for a major overhaul before being repainted. My first Airfix Harrier had the gloss finish including grey undersides with red/blue roundels. Edited August 10, 2016 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Thanks for the advice, gone ahead and ordered some Winsor and Newton Satin for the phatoom, hoeing it is a true semi matt finish, tested some floor polish the other day that was as gloss as my gloss varnish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Some types remained in a high-gloss polyurethane finish in to the two-tone roundel era, such as Vulcans and some Canberras (PR.9, T.17), seem to remember reading that it was types that might have prolonged exposure in salty air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 According to the 1972 MoD paint AP, all camouflage aircraft were to be finished in matt paint. The two tone roundels are specified as well, AL7 Feb 1973. Maritime aircraft were to be finished in gloss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 41 converted to the Jaguar in the late 70s, so the Phantom is more 70s than 80s (hope that doesn't sound too smart-alec). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 41 converted to the Jaguar in the late 70s, so the Phantom is more 70s than 80s (hope that doesn't sound too smart-alec). Not to me, I was going to say that. The early Phantoms were seen in a glossy finish. As others have said, roundels changed during the early 70's, likewise the finish changed to matt around the same time. I don't recall seeing wraparound camouflage until the early 80's, roughly coinciding with the entry into service of the Tonka but certainly this is when it became noticeable on Harriers and Jags. I recall seeing some of the early Hawks in DG/DSG/LAG but by far the majority were delivered in wraparound. The RAF tends to do standard re-paints in line with aircraft servicing schedules - usually Majors, so changes in the schemes will take time to come into effect, say 2 or 3 years before the majority of the fleet changing over. The change to national insignia coincided with a drive to a more tactical footing which may have required a special re-paint, but only of the insignia, so it would be entirely possible to see glossy finished aircraft with tactical roundels. This discussion once again proves the value of modelling to a photo of your subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 This is part of the 1972 amendment for Aircraft Painting, Colour Schemes and Markings from AP119A-0601-1E issued in June 1969. The document includes single and twin engine camouflage pattern drawings for a Hunter and Canberra. Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Wraparound camouflage was definitely around on tactical types like the Jaguar and Buccaneer in 1976, certainly in numbers on Harriers and Jaguars (and early Tonka) present at the 1977 years Silver Jubilee at Finningley. Definitely agree on using a photo reference of your particular subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 (edited) 41 converted to the Jaguar in the late 70s, so the Phantom is more 70s than 80s (hope that doesn't sound too smart-alec). Damn, I did the build in the OP for the NATO 80s Group build....oops Edited August 10, 2016 by PhantomBigStu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 This is part of the 1972 amendment for Aircraft Painting, Colour Schemes and Markings from AP119A-0601-1E issued in June 1969. The document includes single and twin engine camouflage pattern drawings for a Hunter and Canberra. Nick Glad to see even 30 years after the end of the war people still got Dark Sea Grey and Dark Green mixed up - Dark Sea Green on the arctic section! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xvtonker Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I was on 31 Sqn FGR.2 Phantoms at RAF Bruggen from 1975 until 1976 when the Jags arrived, and all of our aircraft had a Matt finish. XVTonker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share Posted August 15, 2016 Thanks for the advice, I have now finished my phantom in a nice satin (but quite matt) coat, also have a hunter with the LAG underside, does that also need the same treatment, for more info its XJ633 4Sqn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 Your Hunter would most likely have started out in gloss finish which would have weathered to satin, or even matt, over time. IIRC 4 Squadron had converted to the Harrier by the time "tone down" came into effect. I can still remember seeing Jaguar XZ385 of 41 Squadron in a hangar at Coltishall in 1976 in matt wraparound camouflage, the first time I'd seen such a finish close up: the other two jets in there, a 6 Squadron GR. 1 and T. 2 XX144 of 54 Squadron (IIRC) still had Light Aircraft Grey undersides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaggy Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Even for gloss jets, I finish in a Satin as it helps the scale appearance... A 72nd scale phantom for example, with a finish like a new Bugatti just doesn't look right; add some satin into the mix and voila! Looks so much better! D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotthldr Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) Two photographs from 1970 of a Phantom FGR2 in Matt finish with Red/White/Blue roundels Edited September 20, 2016 by scotthldr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 Dig this up again, what do you guys reckon I should use on a RAFG lightning F2A? W&N Matt or Satin Varnish? Can't make up my mind to finish mine off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said: Dig this up again, what do you guys reckon I should use on a RAFG lightning F2A? W&N Matt or Satin Varnish? Can't make up my mind to finish mine off Officially the finish would be matt but it would only stay looking that way immediately after painting or washing, once the aircraft is in service they'd take on a finish that would be matt in places but satin or even glossy in others. Fluids and greases and grime accumulate in different areas and when cleaned up spread and change the surface finish. Likewise, the work of the groundcrew will alter the finish in specific areas. There's no simple answer to the question but I would recommend the careful study of several photos and try to replicate what you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Bunker Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Slightly off topic, in the section of AP119A-0601-1E that Nick posted, I note the following: "For arctic operations, the dark sea green (my italics) may be overpainted with matt white water based distemper to Spec. DTD441 on the autority of the A.O.C. in C." Dark sea green? Perhaps that accounts for why I have seen the white distemper painted over the Dark Green on some detatchments and over the Dark Sea Grey on others. Does the MoD not proof read their instructions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Wez said: Officially the finish would be matt but it would only stay looking that way immediately after painting or washing, once the aircraft is in service they'd take on a finish that would be matt in places but satin or even glossy in others. Fluids and greases and grime accumulate in different areas and when cleaned up spread and change the surface finish. Likewise, the work of the groundcrew will alter the finish in specific areas. There's no simple answer to the question but I would recommend the careful study of several photos and try to replicate what you see. Thanks for the answer, looks pretty Matt in the photos, I shall use that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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