Don Gentile's P-51B, which enamel brown?

[bentwaters81tfw]

The 'angry bird' is the insignia of 4 FG a 'dirty yellow' disc with a brown eagle with paler highlights, a white breast, tail feathers, and on the lower legs. The feet and beak are yellow. Black patch between the eyes. It is wearing dark brown boxing gloves.

The Mighty Eighth Warpaint and Heraldry, p. 156

[Brian J]

Like many others, I have long had an interest in the career of Don Gentile. He signed up for the RAF in August of 1941 in my hometown of Windsor, Ontario, across the river from Detroit, Michigan. A detailed account from his 1944 logbook can be found at wademeyersart.tripod.com and is a very detailed, interesting read.

Several dates and events taken from this website may shed light on the above topic. Gentile's first flight in P-51, VF-T was March 2nd. April 13th was his last mission in VP-T. It appears he flew this aircraft for a little over a month. His wingman, John Godfrey flew 'Shangri-La' on April 9th. Squadron history shows Gentile sat out the 3 missions from the 9th to the 11th. I could be mistaken, but it appears Gentile flew no more than 12 or 13 missions in this famous aircraft. During the first few months of operation P-51B's experienced numerous maintenance issues (spark plugs, oil leaks, guns jamming, etc.) and pilots often flew different aircraft.

According to Wade Meyers web site the 4th FG had their white ETO recognition noses painted over in red on March 15th. "The very first batch of red paint was purchased from local civilian stores and was a lacquer type with a relatively low pigment content, rather than an enamel; that is, it had a nail polish transparent quality and took 3 or 4 coats to cover well. Very thin and watery as one hangar technician stated. Shortly thereafter, on one of the first flights (March 17?) with the new red noses, some of the Mustangs flew through "rough weather". A sleet storm was encountered by some of the P-51s, and the ice just peeled that cheap red paint right off their spinners. That was why Shangri-La's spinner sported that very ragged edge to the spinners red/white demarcation line...within a few days Don had the white forward half of the spinner touched up... the red/white cowl checkerboard and the red wheels would have been painted on at this time."

"Mar 16-18.....VF-T flown with red, then red/wht nose, and 13 crosses on the scroll."

Well, you get the idea. Several changes in a short time period. Again, check the above web site if interested.

As to the colour of the Olive Drab colour, I agree with Gingerbob that the aircraft was waxed near the end and appears darker then in some earlier photos. The whole story of the famous 'Shangri-La' was no more than six weeks!

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Thanks for posting

It seems likely in view of that that Shangri-La is possibly only famous because Gentile crashed it!

[spitfire]

I was surprised how dark the neutral grey was when I built my SH P-39, I used Colourcoats ACUS13 and this set off this thread

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27570-us-wwii-neutral-grey-gray/

In the end I was very pleased with the result.

Cheers

Dennis

[MigModeller]

As to the original question about the colour, you could do worse than Revell 42, which is slightly greener and a little less dark than Humbrol 66.

These are the replies I sought.

"I've yet to find one that doesn't need some adjustment to make me feel happier about it."

Like adding H98 Chocolate

Edited July 29, 2016 by MigModeller

[MigModeller]

[DennisTheBear]

In the dim recesses of my memory (I am somewhat old, but not yet venerable) I recall reading somewhere that there were 2 different shades of Olive Drab, intended for different types of equipment or climates, but were often used interchangabley because of wartime conditions.

I may be misremembering or the source may have been wrong.

[bentwaters81tfw]

This is not definitive, merely an interpretation. In any event, it is inaccurate as the serial on the tail is shown in white. Serial numbers were always yellow on OD, and black on NMF. This is the problem you get with an artist's rendering. Again the eagles tones are incorrect against official 4 FG heraldry.

I also have an 'interpretation' of Shangri-La, showing a blue eagle on an orange disc with the serial number in red. On the same page it has an 'interpretation ' of Urban Drew's 'Detroit Miss' with the canopy rail in blue. The 375th Fighter Sqn colour was red, and the canopy rail was also painted red. Later in it's life the a/c sported variously a red fin cap and wing tips, and a red rudder. Artists interpretations should be taken with a pinch of salt, like the 'brown' above. As a further illustration of errors, certain persons say the Voodoos of the 81st TFW were all painted in coroguard. All pure fabrications, they were NMF. No coroguard, no silver lacquer. 2 were painted ADC gray, and a few had gray spines late in service.

Edited July 30, 2016 by bentwaters81tfw

[The original Kit Builder]

The 'angry bird' is the insignia of 4 FG a 'dirty yellow' disc with a brown eagle with paler highlights, a white breast, tail feathers, and on the lower legs. The feet and beak are yellow. Black patch between the eyes. It is wearing dark brown boxing gloves.

The Mighty Eighth Warpaint and Heraldry, p. 156

Thanks for the correction. Sometimes text is better than old photo's for this sort of thing.

[Luft46]

I did quite a lot of research on this particular plane when i made my 1/48th version, and by far the best colour match that i found was Tamiya's Olive Drab. It looks rather green in the pot, but when it dries, its true colour comes out. Tamiya's Neutral Grey for the undersides is also a great match and much darker than people imagine it to be. I made mine as accurate to the time as possible with red outer main wheel hubs, red tail wheel, red and white spinner and tail stripes top and bottom. Couple of pics for reference...

[stevehnz]

Great, I've just found a good reference for doing one myself. Thanks.

Nice job too, btw.

Steve

[bentwaters81tfw]

Very nice, and my choice of colours. It's a shame they got the eagle the wrong colour. Just looking at another colour photo of Shangri-La, the gun bays are yellow chromate inside rather than green. I'm not sure about the 'B' model, but the wheel wells on the 'D' were NMF, with only the spar face in chromate.

[MigModeller]

Very nice indeed.

I take it it's finished in Tamiya Acrylic XF62?

I hope my 1/72 turns out as superb, though I'll use enamel paint.

Edited August 2, 2016 by MigModeller

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

If you PM me a postal address I'll send you postcard samples of Colourcoats ANA Olive Drab and Neutral Gray enamels for reference.

[Luft46]

Very nice, and my choice of colours. It's a shame they got the eagle the wrong colour. Just looking at another colour photo of Shangri-La, the gun bays are yellow chromate inside rather than green. I'm not sure about the 'B' model, but the wheel wells on the 'D' were NMF, with only the spar face in chromate.

I think wheel well colours varied quite a lot on the various models of mustangs, ive seen green, yellow, silver and even black before on A, B & C models but only ever seen silver on D's

[Luft46]

Very nice indeed.

I take it it's finished in Tamiya Acrylic XF62?

I hope my 1/72 turns out as superb, though I'll use enamel paint.

Yes its XF62, i think Tamiya do the same olive drab in an enamel too though? You can also get it in a rattle can, TS-5 for standard Olive Drab or a slightly lighter version (Olive Drab 2) which is TS-28, might give you a better finish than brush painted enamel

Edited August 2, 2016 by Luft46

[bentwaters81tfw]

TS-5 is very good, I just did all my 8th AF stuff in it.

[Murph]

I used Gunze paints and was happy with the result. LINK Keep in mind that the paint color changed in the course of the war and there were different companies producing it. Over on Hyperscale Dana Bell was quoted as saying:

... unlike the Navy, the Army did not specify formulas for its paints. Manufacturers were provided standards for how a paint was to perform, a copy of Bulletin 41 to match the color, and an opportunity to submit dope, lacquer, and enamel samples for evaluation. The Materiel Division stringently tested those samples, and failure on any of a number of parameters – adhesion, flexibility, reflectance, or weight, for example – resulted in rejection and an invitation to submit an improved sample for further examination. However, a review of Materiel Command (as the Materiel Division was renamed in April 1942) records shows that no paints were rejected for failure to match the color standards. Many paints failed to match those standards – reports carried notes such as: "slightly dark," "slightly light," "slightly off-shade," "color did not match standard of Bulletin 41," and "color slightly gray" – but all of these samples were approved. Manufacturers were instructed to adjust the color, but were not required to submit a new sample for retesting. Materiel Command approved over eighty-five different Dark Olive Drab paints, and there was little chance that any two were exact color matches.

That's before fading and weathering had worked their magic.

Regards,

Murph