MigModeller Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Hi all I thought I'd finish KP's new Mustang in Don Gentile's markings. I'm confused which enamel to use. Contenders seem to be: Humbrol: 70 Brick Red Matt, 186 Brown Matt Revell: 32180 Mud Brown Gloss, 32137 Reddish Brown Flat. The underneath seems less of a problem. Revell 32143 Flat Grey USAF! I'd be very interested to learn of your recommendations. Cheers M.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I always thought that his P 51 B was olive drab/neutral grey camo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenshirt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Likely trying to replicate the faded appearance of the OD. I'll not recommend a color, as it can be a bit subjective and simply recommend you choose a shade of olive drab that you feel best replicates a faded Olive Drab. Certainly not brown. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 It was Olive Drab, but contemporary colour photos make it look brown. This may be because some Olive Drabs did fade that way, rather than just the peculiarities of colour film. I would use a strongly olive colour rather than one of the greener ODs. Underside should indeed be Neutral Gray, which at that time was quite dark as opposed to the lighter colour seen underneath on later aircraft. As regards the brown-ness of early WW2 OD, note that British modellers were advised to use Dark Earth for C-47s (early Harleyford, I think) and that at one time Olive Drab was considered as an acceptable substitute for Dark Earth on aircraft built in the USA for the RAF. I wouldn't go so far as suggest any that received it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigModeller Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 Likely trying to replicate the faded appearance of the OD. I'll not recommend a color, as it can be a bit subjective and simply recommend you choose a shade of olive drab that you feel best replicates a faded Olive Drab. Certainly not brown. Tim "Not brown"?!!! http://www.theunawriterslair.com/photos/scenes_of_the_4th_fighter/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomBigStu Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Take your olive drab of choice and add a bit of light grey in it, that should get you a decent faded version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigModeller Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 Take your olive drab of choice and add a bit of light grey in it, that should get you a decent faded version The two Humbrol colours I've mentioned already look faded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Nope- its not brown per se. The colour as others have said is Olive drab which is best described as a warm brownish-green. It's a colour that causes much contention mostly because period colour photos show it in a myriad of hues ranging from very brown looking to very green, and also because the colour itself seems to have be mixed/formulated/specified in such a way as it give variance in even factory fresh state. But it is not brown, in the sense of the colours you mention. Jonners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Hi all I thought I'd finish KP's new Mustang in Don Gentile's markings. I'm confused which enamel to use. Contenders seem to be: Humbrol: 70 Brick Red Matt, 186 Brown Matt Revell: 32180 Mud Brown Gloss, 32137 Reddish Brown Flat. The underneath seems less of a problem. Revell 32143 Flat Grey USAF! I'd be very interested to learn of your recommendations. Cheers M.M. MM if you google image Don Gentile P-51, you will find a period colour images, as he was very famous, and Shangri La doesn't look very faded to me note how it appears green and brown in different pics. If you use Humbrol, H155 is greeny olive drab, H66 is browny. I'd go for H155 myself. HTH T PS - not sure of the chronology, but the 3rd pic has a white spinner tip. Note the red wheel hubs too, 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 A completely ordinary P51B delivered in ANA61 Olive Drab over Neutral Gray. The former faded and varied a bit whilst also falling victim to poor quality photographic properties and bad reproductions since. The latter is much darker than most people like to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) It seems that during 1941/42, at least, there was little control over the colour standards in the USAAF, particularly for Olive Drab. It can be seen in different shades on the same aircraft, particularly (to my knowledge) on B-17s and C-47s, where different parts were made in different factories. These different mixes will not only look different when new, but fade/weather in different directions. Just adding grey may well work for some variants, but I'm inclined to add brown (or choose a brownish OD) in this particular case. Just not so much as to match the picture originally linked to. Remember that the green in some pictures is every bit as much an artefact of the film/conditions/reproduction as the brown in others. Edited July 28, 2016 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 The colour of the sky can give a clue that the colours have shifted a bit in old photos. If it has that "instagram" look of a vintage photograph with a torquise tinted sky, you can be fairly sure that you're looking through tinted spectacles. That's not to say blue skies are a safe bet! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Before the advent of NMF finishes, all 8th AF fighters were OD over NG. OD did fade badly, however so did wartime colour film stock. 4FG only received P-51Bs in late Feb 44, and 43-6913 was lost on 13.4.44. It would not have faded much in 7 to 8 weeks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 There is also the effect of filters to be taken into account here, something Peter Malone and other researchers more qualified than I have spent a lot of time looking at. I believe many wartime photographers made wide use of filters on their cameras to give better results, which of course will effect the appearance of colours in genuine colour photographs. As James points out in the post above, the appearance of the sky (and other features in a photo) or known colours such as national markings can sometimes give a hint. PR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmig Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Although it's not perfect, this is probably a bit more realistic colour balance. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 I love that hand painted looking spinner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigModeller Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 There was me thinking they'd be a couple of replies with a few Humbrol numbers! A big thank you to everyone who has contributed. In "The Encyclopedia of Modelmaking Techniques" by Christopher Payne, 2001, pg 132 shows a model of a P-51D of 357 FG. It really shows the dilemma; dark brown appears deep green! Mixing a colour seems to be the way to go. Cheers M.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Why not just get a decent ANA OD and Neutral Gray to start with, and fade to suit if you want some changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Might this aircraft also have been waxed? It has that somewhat sheeny look to me, and that might shift the appearance of the colour as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The original Kit Builder Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 It's important to note, too, that this particular aircraft was still almost new when Gentile crashed it showing off to the official photographer covering his tour completion. It's in the back of my mind somewhere that it was something like six weeks old, so wouldn't have been excessively faded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Indeed: It looks near enough brand new to me. I'd be just using a proper OD and NG if it were me. A few stone chips on leading edges of tail plane and under the cockpit on the wing fillet, but otherwise very good condition and seemingly uniform colour. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 It's a really classic scheme for the Mustang that puts me in mind of the old Harleyford book cover but the photos posted here prompt a couple of questions. What's the story, if any, behind the white spinner tip seen in some of the colour images but not in the crash pictures? Does anyone make really good decals for those markings in 1/72nd scale? I'd like to completely waste a set on an old Airfix or Monogram kit. Most of the decals I've seen in kits are not very good, especially in recreating the soft spray effect of the yellow background to the "angry bird". IIRC the Hasegawa kit only included a checkerboard decal for the left side of the nose. Thanks Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigModeller Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 Does anyone make really good decals for those markings in 1/72nd scale? Thanks Nick https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/KW72002 But the penny-pinching decal makers, don't include the national markings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/KW72002 But the penny-pinching decal makers, don't include the national markings! Thanks! But apart from the missing national insignia the "angry bird" doesn't look right. In the photographs it appears a dark colour (blue?) and on the decals a light brown (?) and not quite the same shape. Also appears to be missing the hyphen between 'Shangri' and 'la'! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The original Kit Builder Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Thanks! But apart from the missing national insignia the "angry bird" doesn't look right. In the photographs it appears a dark colour (blue?) and on the decals a light brown (?) and not quite the same shape. Also appears to be missing the hyphen between 'Shangri' and 'la'! Nick The bird itself was black and the circle a dirty brownish yellow, as if insgnia yellow was put on quite thinly over olive drab. As to the original question about the colour, you could do worse than Revell 42, which is slightly greener and a little less dark than Humbrol 66. That said, of all the OD's available, I've yet to find one that doesn't need some adjustment to make me feel happier about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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