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russian hurries,wich one do you prefere ?


Davide Calzolari

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It certainly is, Italian Intruder. Local repaint, obviously, but which colour? I would suggest to check that VVS forum, but right now I cannot remember nor its name nor address. What I do remember about it is that most forum members do not hold Pilawskii's work, like the first colour profile you posted, in particularly high regard. Cheers

Jure

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It certainly is, Italian Intruder. Local repaint, obviously, but which colour? I would suggest to check that VVS forum, but right now I cannot remember nor its name nor address. What I do remember about it is that most forum members do not hold Pilawskii's work, like the first colour profile you posted, in particularly high regard. Cheers

Jure

too right Jure

see

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Modeling/Hawker/Hurricane/HurriProfiles/Part1/VVS_Hurricanes-1.html

In this new series of colour profiles we will hope to re-examine some of the interesting colour schemes to be found on Hawker Hurricane fighters serving within the VVS. These interpretations are new, based on recent work which has been undertaken to both draw and measure these aircraft afresh, and taking into consideration some additional information which has to come to light since 2003 regarding the painting practices of field units and organisations within the VVS structure.

It should be stressed that any definitive conclusions about the appearance of these aircraft is not possible at this time. I have no expertise in the field of RAF camouflage, and whilst working from excellent resource material, I have not undertaken physical studies of these paints nor their properties. The resulting character of the various British paints, and the Soviet ones used to modify their appearance, is therefore theoretical in nature, and represents my own attempt to find the most likely solution which fits the current evidence.

so, we have a man talking about Hurricanes, but no knowing much about RAF camouflage.

From the limited amount of photos of VVS Hurricanes available (under 100 planes out of nearly 3000 Hurricanes supplied) one thing can be said as a 'general rule'

They retained their basic RAF camouflage, and red stars were applied by the RAF BEFORE delivery, so profiles showing RAF roundels over painted with Soviet paint are incorrect.

typical cobblers

"No Number"

This Hurricane IIb may be of slightly later manufacture as compared to the previous examples, and sports the later style 'fish-tail' type exhaust stacks (although, of course these could be replacement items). When examining the two photographs (see below) it occurred to me that the machine in the close-up showing the nose, and the one appearing partially in view to the right, and aft, may well be the same aircraft. The following profile is based upon that assumption.
Hurri2b-MK7white-nonumber.jpg
Full VVS style armament has been installed in this Hurricane, including six RO82 rocket rails. MK-7 White winter finish had been applied somewhat carefully to the upper surfaces, and minus the effects of wear it was probably-- in its original guise-- quite solid. A curious demarcation line for this white colouration is seen on the fuselage, perhaps 1/3 of the distance upwards. Subsequently, of course, a fair amount of the MK-7 had worn away by the time of the photograph, which was quite typical in service.
Not much of the upper surface colouration remains in view. However, the undersurfaces are clear and certainly agree with the usual appearance of Sky colouration on Soviet films. Therefore, the upper surface scheme has been completed with the expected RAF style in Dark Earth and Dark Green. No tactical number may be seen in either view. The spinner looks to remain in Sky paint. Very considerable exhaust staining is evident on the fuselage. The possibility of the wing undersurface having received a 'blob' of re-painting colour is suggested by light reflections in the close-up image to starboard, and are here shown completed with AII Blue lacquer.
worn-mk7-nose.jpghurri-winter-14OAE.jpg
the profile shows a Temperate Land Scheme, Dark Green/Dark Earth/Sky, while it's obvious the planes above are Day Fighter Scheme, because Sky photographs very pale, and against snow would be near white..
the mention of the scheme having a 'high division' is nearly very extensive exhaust staining....
OK, White 14?
this is unusual in it has been extensively repaired
HurricaneII_white14_2.jpg
HurricaneII_white14.jpg
the 2nd pic shows much of the light uppers are quite possibly due to overexposure of film, and they uppers are darker.
I'd suggest repaint with a common VVS colour, given Hurricanes were most prevalent in 1942, I'd suggest AMT-4 Green for the repairs, but this is really notpossible to say anything with any certainly about the colours
OK, back to EP on this

The aircraft exhibits obvious and thorough re-finishing. The basic underlying colouration is certainly the original RAF camouflage of Dark Earth and Dark Green, and this would seem to equate best with the 'A' pattern application. Having examined a large number of re-painted Hurricanes in VVS service, it appears to be the case that Black was used quite commonly for such purposes, indeed in preference in many cases to Green colours. One may suspect that this had to do with the very dark appearance (by VVS standards) of the RAF's Dark Green colour, and in fact on Soviet types of film stock the tonal appearance of the two colours is often nearly (or, entirely) indistinguishable.

Hurri2b-White14.jpg

Many interpretations of "White 14" heretofore (including my own) have shown the use of various exotic colouration, including lacquers such as AII Brown and AE-10. Upon reflection, I am now satisfied that the appearance can, in fact, best be explained by the use of much more typical paints. I suspect that the finishes used were of the AMT variety. We can see from the physical record that most field repair and re-painting operations favoured very strongly the use of AMT lacquer. One presumes that this was based upon the adhesive properties of AMT and was not related in any sense to colouration, as such. In this case, it would seem that an area of AMT-4 Green was applied around the cockpit, and onto the wing root. The remainder of the re-painting work looks very much to consist of AMT-6 Black applications to cover the required areas, including the rudder, fuselage, and so forth.
The various unpainted 'bands' showing the underlying colouration are interesting, and they appear in most versions of these photographs, suggesting that they may be an actual feature and not an artefact of the damage to the images. The light colour appliqué could certainly be MK-7 White, but I have drawn it here using AEh-9 Light Grey (the contrast to me seems incompatible with white). The spinner has been left in Sky colouration, and the undersurface re-painting is simply speculative (although slightly suggested in one image). Curiously, wing upper surface stars have been applied to '14'.
"White 14" looks to have retained its original armament of 12 x .303 Browning machine-guns at the time it was photographed. The aircraft is said to have been in service with the VVS along the North-West Front, and some authors have claimed that it might have belonged to the 78 IAP (which is by no means confirmed).

wing upper stars were a standard RAF marking application, these are Spit Vbs before delivery in Iran

see http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

Spitfire_002_IWM%20E23983.jpg

in other photos taken here they show the RAF roundels being overpainted and then red stars applied,look at the above and you can see the fresh paint.

see also here for discussion of VVS Hurricanes
the two seater?
note this profile is far more likely then the TLS finish shown in the profile above

russianreccem.jpg

to sum up, without evidence to the contrary, assume VVS Hurricanes retain RAF camo, there are exceptions, like the pale prop blades in the link,
and white 14, but these are exceptions.
The Osprey Soviet Hurricane Aces book has lots of photos, when i got it I counted 21 I'dnot seen before, and I have the Red Stars books and the Polish 'Hurricane in Foreign Service' book.
see here for info on VVS regunning, with drawings
one of my pet subjects....
HTH
T
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Ciao!

My guess for the "white 14" and "white 42" of those above is following:

Camouflage colours are all RAF

- original camo "mixed grey" and Dark Green

- MU or somesuch has overpainted all RAF markings with proper Ocean Grey (lighter than mixed grey) and Dark Green before sending to Soviet Union

Soviets painted only markings: stars and tactical number

I am interested to hear all pro and contra facts to above statement.

Late 1941 (December) over Finnish front was reported several times Hurricanes with RAF markings. RAF units did not fly at these areas. My undertanding is that early 1942 Soviets were so short of everything that even proper markings were not seen compulsory.

Autumn 1941 Hurricane deliveries to SU were done apparently hastily. In some memories mention Soviets were angered to find Hurricane from crate with (Finnish?) swastika insignias. During Winter War more Hurricanes were readied to be sent to Finland, but it did not materialize.

At least the "42" was crash landed early 1942 (February?). I am separated from my books several hundred kilometers so cannot check right now.

Cheers,

Kari

PS Just remembered that FinnAF Morane pilots reported seeing at least one Hurricane with silver outer wing panels. IIRC this was also early 1942? At least it was period with snow cover. By 1943 Hurricane was becoming a rarity already.

Edited by Kari Lumppio
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As Hurricanes being readied for Finland during the Winter War were Mk.Is, and all those sent to Russia Mk.IIs, the story of aircraft being received in swastika markings is a fairy story. It is true that some of the deliveries were reworked Mk.Is upgraded to Mk.II standard, but this will have included a new fabric covering and complete repaint after this time. Confirmation can probably be found from a study of the serials sent - assuming of course that it is known which ones were among those considered for Finland.

It isn't clear why any of the aircraft sent to Russia would have been in Mixed Grey, which supposedly (if not always) was supposed to give the same shade as Ocean Grey, and was for the use of service units rather than factories.

It seems likelier that any overpainting of markings will have been after arrival rather than before delivery. After all, if the Soviet stars had all been painted on before delivery, there could have been no sign of RAF roundels over the Finnish Front. The argument can only work one way.

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The third one down 01 because of this:- http://www.lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/hurricane_Z5252/index.htmits OK you can totally ignore my post, I'm used to it.

I did try to get sense out of Mark Sheppard about the colours on Z5252,

151-4.jpg

Z5252 was the first Hurricane handed over by 151 wing RAF, and was he underwing roundel painted out with a thin coat of RAF sky?

151 wing was a a fully equipped RAF unit, so would have had paint, and Z5252 was a special plane, so I'd suggest was repainted by the RAF ground crew for the handover.

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Hello!

Hurricane "42" was not shot down. It made emergency landing mid February 1942 on Tuoppajärvi lake.

"42"/Z2585 was not new plane. It flew with 316 sqn RAF. A friend was able to provide 316 sqn ORB copies and IIRC Z2585 was off operations for few days soon after the DFS order August 1941 and that would fit for repaint. IIRC also last flight with 316 was in September 1941 or so. It is several years since I last looked into this topic and cannot remember where I have the files. Hopefully not among lost e-mails.

As I wrote it seems in Karelian area late 1941 - early 1942 VVS Hurricane units did not always paint the Soviet Stars on, even. Then I suppose the canouflage was left untouched, too.

This is behind my reasoning that camouflage colours are British. Progress to Summer and later 1942, Soviet weapon modifications and so on, situation certainly changed.

Hurricane "14" is said to be from a Karelian area VVS unit. Soldiers in the "14" photos wear fur hats. Those are not for the Summer. Added to fact that "14" still has original weapons I believe the photos are from early 1942. In late April-early May that year heavy fighting was going on Kiestinki (Kestenga) area. Soviet were in the offensive and propagada photos like these were neeeded. Snow was then alredy thawing if not melting but it still was relatively cold. BTW Hurricanes were used then for ground target strafing, what I have read from Finnish Infantry war diaries.

Cheers,

Kari

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I'd just like to add a few points here.

First of all, to make it very clear, I am a personal friend of Erik Pilawskii and have worked with him for many years on various projects and such (proof reading some of his books amongst other things) and he has contributed greatly to the He 115 book I am working on by drawing the new scale drawings, interpreting black-and-white photos and though general discussions on matters of colours and scale. The two of us also visited Sola Aviation Museum and udnertook physical analysis of the paintwokr as well as measurements of the He 115 there.

So, I know that Erik does no just form an opinion of anything, his reuslts are based on scientific studies and analysis. And his intepretative skills areexcellent. Earlier this year I got engaged in a huge discussion on Facebook on the colouration of Curtiss fighters operated by the Little Norway school, in Canada and showing Erik some colours photos as well as black and white photos of the aircraft, he quickly concluded that they were in standard olive drab/neutral grey, not this overall "apple green" which was the prevailing understanding. There was naturally a lot of resistance against this new interpretation but when we found some colour film clearly showing this scheme, the matter was clear.

You should also know that Erik works for a company specialicing in the repainting of warbirds and museum aircraft. He and his partner conducts analysis of these aicraft to provide the owners with correct colours and schemes. And a lot of money is involved in this, so erik's results will have to be solid and he is legally responsible for thr results. His opinions are thus not juts opinions but also an investment for him; he could liable if he he made a severe mistake! The rest of us run no risk having opinion on colours except personal rpestigave, mabye, but for Erik is a job. So please, do not take his opinions lightly.

I know these Hurricane profiles are old and he may have changed his opinions on them now, but there is one thing Erik does that very few others in these discussion seem capable of and that is changing his mind of evidence is presented!

Sorry for the lenghty reply, but I feel some counterweights needed to be added. Erik does not participate in online discussions for obvious reasons, but I want it to be known that he is no novice when it comes to aviation colours. How many here have actually masked and painted a warbird or analysed wrecks and restoration subjects in full?? Or travelled to archives in the Soviet Union when it was still called that and examined their original documents?

Having said that and to keep the thread on topic, I'd definitely go for White 14!

As for the two-seater mentiond, I've made a conversion of Hasegawas Hurricane in 17/48 soem years ago, with the help of Erik's colour tips!

Kjetil

Two-seat_Hurricane_VVS_2_zps3136a355.jpg

Two-seat_Hurricane_VVS_7_zpsd7b734d2.jpg

Two-seat_Hurricane_VVS_4_zpsbe618823.jpg

Two-seat_Hurricane_VVS_3_zps0ae723c7.jpg

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Hello italian intruder and terve Kari and Troy :)

Here is link to high resolution picture of a Russian Hurricane that was shot down during March 1942:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pudonnuthurricane.jpg

It is the well known "42"

Best Regards,

Antti

Obviously it has the yellow RAF-ID stripes retained on the leading edges and a very low contrast between the upperside colors, likely in DG and mixed grey IMO

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I have no expertise in the field of RAF camouflage, and whilst working from excellent resource material, I have not undertaken physical studies of these paints nor their properties

so, we have a man talking about Hurricanes, but no knowing much about RAF camouflage

To be fair, he is saying he has not undertaken physical studies of these paints and their properties. He is saying he has not done studies like Nick Millman (RAF, Japan) or the late Ken Merrick (Germany) on actual RAF paint.

It does appear that, apart from a few oddball artworks, most of the Hurricanes in those decal sheets are in RAF camouflage..... whatever the artist in each case intended....!

PS - Nice model, Kjetil

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Hi!

First, I agree with Ed, it is a nice model, Kjetil. If mine, one I finally muster enough courage to start converting one, turns out half as good as yours I will be more than happy.

In my first post I should have just said that majority, if not all, Hurricanes supplied to Soviet Union were in their original RAF scheme(s) with some repainting, either during refurbishment in UK, either locally. Hardly something anyone participating in this debate would not already know, though.

Typing Pilawskii into search engine of above mentioned forum provides for hours of reading. Positive impressions about his work are scarce and far between. Anyway, one of the links Troy provided puts one in the middle of one of such debate so anybody can form his or her own opinion on the subject.

It is us, the modellers, who spend sleepless nights arguing about 50 (thousand) shades of gray and which of them exactly replaced previous slightly different shade of gray on a particular aircraft. Just the facts of (modeller's) life, I guess. My point is that while we might experience excruciating physical pain, being forced to watch some of those poor excuses for aircraft on public display these days, vast majority of that same public and even most of the professionals in fields of history and flying would be quite pleased. So, using incorrect type of olive green to finish restored plane, either by accident or by design, hardly carries any risk to one's reputation outside modeller's community. Cheers

Jure

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Hello!

Of the "14". It is within realities that there is frost/snow on the airplane wing. Just an personal remark.

Was my flapper gasted when I googled about another Soviet Hurricane with three search words including "Hurricane", "Röhö" and my last name. Seems I have initialized thread here at Britmodeller and have totally forgotten that!:

Hurricane IIA Z2585 , Soviet "42"
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/50604-hurricane-iia-z2585-soviet-42

One of the linked photos even shows my beloved Nokia 3310 phone (still working - badly - but not in use).

The Röhö Hurricane I searched for is mentioned in this thread:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234939009-finnish-hurricane-pictures/

It is terryfying to notice how much I have forgotten about these "Karelian" Hurricanes... For example it was late Edgar who made me think about the mixed grey possibility. God bless soul of that good man.

In the "42" thread I have cut a rectangle from the "light" grey area and pasted under the canopy. Compared like that there is not much difference! See yourselves.

Cheers,

Kari

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Hi

Just in case the issue has not been confused enough ... Check the following link:

http://www.airpages.ru/book/hurricane_00.shtml

There are three black and white photos of Hurricane IIc, evaluated by NII VVS, on this webpage. Red stars have thin black outline and it is obvious, that those on the fuselage had been applied afresh and not repainted. As Graham mentioned in his post, fuselage aft of cockpit had probably been covered with new fabric during refurbishment. The second photo apparently shows camouflage scheme, consisting of at least three different highly contrasted colours. However, the third photo, a close-up of the tail, shows only two colours scheme with fairly low contrast one would expect with Ocean gray and Dark green. Colours and contrasts on the first photo look something in between, but closer to the third photo.

I am inclined to believe this Hurricane is painted in standard RAF Dark green, Ocean gray and Sea gray medium C scheme pattern with national markings painted before delivery. However, this speculation is only viable if apparent third colour and high contrasts from the second photo are attributed to too much lightning or some other imperfection, either during photographing or later during development. I openly admit this is pretty far-fetched, though I would very much like to read your comments. Cheers

Jure

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