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Humbrol Paint Problems


vh-bob

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G'day All

First of all ,I have asked about this problem on another site due to the fact that I was unable to find a suitable place to post here. It turns out that I just didn't look hard enough. When I first used Humbrol enamel more years ago than I care to remember, it was made by the Humber Art Oil Company, it was petroleum based and thinned with petrol and came in 6 or so glass Phials on a card of RAF and Luftwaffe etc colours and when brushed on , the only way in those days, dried to a beautifully satin finish. Later came the dreaded tinlet that you never seemed to get the last dregs out of but the contents remained excellent. Then recently we began to get tins where the oil base and the pigment seemed to have separated and resisted all attempts to mix them. Any attempt to use them on a model ended in disaster. The local Model Shop suggested that they had heard that in an effort to cut costs, Humbrol had moved their paint production to China and that this had caused the problem. After an eternity waiting for stocks of this paint to disappear from the shelves, tins of enamel bearing the Union Jack and labelled "made in the UK" began to appear on the LHS shelves but while not quite as bad as the previous lot were still dicey to use. I have tried thinning it with every liquid known to man with little success and from what I hear from those who have contacted Humbrol, they have not received much satisfaction. It would seem that the simple answer would be to switch to another brand such as Model Master, however the nearest stockist is a considerable distance from me while Humbrol is readily available in my area. It maybe just me but I find it much easier to buy my supplies as I need them and I am more of a "spur of the moment " builder than a "forward planner" and even mail order can be a problem when shipping paint. I suppose the point to this is, has any one else had this problem and if so did they find a solution?.

Thanks for reading this rant, Trev.

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My solution has been to buy new old stocks of Humbrol (including Authentics) on ebay. I have found many tins, including discontinued colors such as Eau-de-Nil and Gloss Yellow #8 in quantities of as much as a dozen each, all as fresh as the day they came from the Humber Oil Company factory.

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If you carry out a search, you'll find a number of discussions on this matter. Whether you find the effort worthwhile is another matter. However, don't imagine that you will find any other paint range that works quite as well as the older Humbrols. They all have their peculiarities and oddballs. You will however find ones that more accurately represent the colours they are supposed to be.

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After finding that many current tinlets of Humbrol enamel were rubbish I put out a call looking for old tins and managed to snag a couple of hundred tins in most colours for little money. I reckon I have enough of the most commonly used colours now to last me the rest of my life. Old stock is definitely the way to go if you can't get on with a shift to a different brand or acrylics.

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G'day All

Thanks for the replies. I didn't search far enough on this site as I did loo0k to see if this topic had been covered before. I will try to find some old stock out there but can get Model Master, Gunze Etc. from a very good shop here in South Australia, it is just the convenience factor. How ever if I throw away my Humbrol stash, and build up supplies of another brand I suppose the problem would eventually work it's self out.

Thanks for your suggestions, Trev.

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I'm slowly changing over from Humbrol to Gunze, simply because of issues with the quality of Humbrol's product. Haven't had a bad experience with Gunze yet, and I much prefer it to Tamiya's acrylics. If I could get PollyScale I'd use them, but...

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G'day AllFirst of all ,I have asked about this problem on another site due to the fact that I was unable to find a suitable place to post here. It turns out that I just didn't look hard enough. When I first used Humbrol enamel more years ago than I care to remember, it was made by the Humber Art Oil Company, it was petroleum based and thinned with petrol and came in 6 or so glass Phials on a card of RAF and Luftwaffe etc colours and when brushed on , the only way in those days, dried to a beautifully satin finish. Later came the dreaded tinlet that you never seemed to get the last dregs out of but the contents remained excellent. Then recently we began to get tins where the oil base and the pigment seemed to have separated and resisted all attempts to mix them. Any attempt to use them on a model ended in disaster. The local Model Shop suggested that they had heard that in an effort to cut costs, Humbrol had moved their paint production to China and that this had caused the problem. After an eternity waiting for stocks of this paint to disappear from the shelves, tins of enamel bearing the Union Jack and labelled "made in the UK" began to appear on the LHS shelves but while not quite as bad as the previous lot were still dicey to use. I have tried thinning it with every liquid known to man with little success and from what I hear from those who have contacted Humbrol, they have not received much satisfaction. It would seem that the simple answer would be to switch to another brand such as Model Master, however the nearest stockist is a considerable distance from me while Humbrol is readily available in my area. It maybe just me but I find it much easier to buy my supplies as I need them and I am more of a "spur of the moment " builder than a "forward planner" and even mail order can be a problem when shipping paint. I suppose the point to this is, has any one else had this problem and if so did they find a solution?.Thanks for reading this rant, Trev.

Could not agree more. Quality of modern day Humbrol is very inconsistent.

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Hey Bob, welcome to the most talked about subject on most forums: Paint.

Like you I have fond memories of Humbrol, especially their Authentics range in the 70’s. Sadly new Humbrol is mysterious stuff. I used it here and was totally baffled by how it was gloppy, then became watery, sometime sprayed beautifully and then turned into pebble dashing all in the same 10 minutes.

artex.jpg

After trying Tamiya acrylics, Vallejo model, Xtracolor and Modelmaster I found this:

mrpaintblack.jpg

Truly excellent paint, worked as it should, even lets me spray hair lines, no preparing needed as it was pre-thinned. Reading the label suggested it was a highly thinned acrylic paint with cellulose thinner. So I tried my favourite other paint Mr Hobby/Mr Color, added Mr Levelling thinners and created my own "Mr El Cheapo" brews.

mrelcheapo.jpg

Now I can even paint 1/72 camo freehand due to new found confidence.

decaltop.jpg

I can also freehand spot repair in under 10 minutes. The paint is pre-mixed with lava beads to help mixing, so a spray session is: shake Mr El Cheapo for thirty seconds, load airbrush, spray away till satisfied or bored and blast cellulose thinners three times through airbrush and put away. Set up and clean takes less than 5 minutes, no measuring into cups, adding thinner etc.

I have just tested using auto body shop RAL paints the same way. These truly come in every shade you could dream of, are dirt cheap and they work even better and let me start my own arguments about what PRU Blue or RLM 63 really should be! (This lovely shade is actually going on a P-51D Reno racer)

ralpaint.jpg

The upshot Bob, is experiment, see what works for you, many here will write love letters to Mr Levelling Thinners when used with Mr Hobby or Tamiya acrylics. But be prepared for setbacks,

I found Xtracolor brilliant but I have a lot of natural finger oil; so even the slightest finger mark not removed meant I got paint lift when using Tamiya tape. And that's a problem unique to my physiology! Other issues are heat and humidity, again cellulose thinned paints are far more tolerant of both, and you can even get anti-bloom thinners for spraying in high humidity.

There is no substitute for experimenting but some tips I would offer: use a 0.4mm at first (I use 0.2mm for detail). If using anything with enamel or cellulose thinner, get a serious extractor and regardless of what you spray, wear a face mask with organic vapour filters.

And just around the corner are the true water based paint systems like this (which strangely, looks, smells and behaves just like Stylnylrez primer!), Some are designed to have primer, colour coat and topcoat applied while all are wet... this system (3Wet) is being pioneered by GSI also known as Gunze who just happen to make Mr Hobby and Mr Color amongst others. No doubt these will be repacked and sold to us at exorbitant cost shortly.

Apologies for the long and rambling reply, but paint was such an issue for me, I stopped modelling until I got a system that works and now with the body shop RAL paints, I no longer worry if my favourite brand will be discontinued/banned/reformulated as they are standard paints for auto repairs in the UK . Now I enjoy the paint part so much , modelling is fun not a chore as it had become waiting for the latest paint disaster after weeks of meticulous work

So in the meantime, be bold, try everything and believe no adverts!

A

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Coincidentally, I am in S.A. too, and I am (was!!) a spray painter by trade. I have a zillion tins of Humbrol of indeterminate ages, and really haven't had any problems. It needs to be stirred thoroughly. Buy yourself a tin of General purpose thinners from your local auto parts store, $25 for 4/5 litres, and use nothing else. It needs to be strained/filtered b4 use, a discarded pair of Ladies tights is ideal ( :winkgrin: ). I must say, I have had no problems with Humbrol. However, Mr. Color is to paint what Tamiya is to kits, it is good stuff, same procedures apply! (And you can get it from the same shop, I am guessing!) Now, I use airbrushes, cheap and cheerful types, and am not personally a fan of water based acrylics, tho I use them occasionally. Hope this helps, rather than confuses!!

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Been using humbrol since I came back into the hobby 5 years ago. It does indeed need a proper good stir. You can spend hours doing that or get yourself a paint stirrer. I got a trumpeter one for about 7 or 8 quid. I just run it off cheap batteries from the £ shop. They actually last a while. Never had a problem since.

For thinning I just use cheap white spirit. Currently going through a bottle of homebase own brand. Any issues I've had with airbrushing it has been really down to my own lack of skill in airbrushing.

Hope this helps

CT

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Thanks to all those who replied, the answer is in here somewhere. I was at first hesitant to post this and wondered if it was only me with the problem but having read this it seems that the problem is fairly wide spread. As for rambling replies, Azureglo, I appreciate the effort you put in, no apology needed. Am I to assume that the passionate purple paint is to be sprayed on to a Clay Lacey Mustang ?. And by the way the VH-BOB moniker is from a CAC built Mustang A68- 104 in which, due to the generosity of my late wife, I once spent a half hour aloft in.

Thanks to all, Trev.

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Shame that a 'Standard' on ones workbench for so many years in the past have let things go so that they no longer can be taken for granted or even considered for use usually. Perhaps the Humbrol management team might consider where things went wrong and put it right. If folks could make paint so right in the dark ages but cannot now is a situation which needs brainstorming by the appropriate team doesn't it?

Meanwhile, like an earlier replies, I buy other brands and use with due reverance my ever decreasing stocks of Humbrol from the Kingston- upon- Hull factory.

Get a grip and get on with it Humbrol I say. Or get out of the game completely, because it very well may put younger dabblers off the hobby before they get going.

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What is different now and way-back-then is lead content, which became illegal to sell to the general public in 1992 under EU legislation. It's only possible to buy white-lead containing paints under controlled circumstances to repair old buildings or art work nowadays.

Whilst we're never going to get the exact properties of 1960s leaded paint without lead any time soon, there are effective substitutes in use in modern enamel paints, and there are still very high quality enamel bases commercially available in varying degrees of aggressiveness. Molecule chain length; short oil molecules dry very quickly but melt plastic (these are used for styrene cement etc) whereas long molecules are gentle but take a week to dry. Modern model enamels tend to be somewhere in the middle with various agents and pigment extenders added.

Getting a good consistent enamel base is the key part, and the pigments and extenders are the expensive part.

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What is different now and way-back-then is lead content, which became illegal to sell to the general public in 1992 under EU legislation.

But was Humbrol ever lead-based? It was advertised as "non-toxic." which always has led me to believe it contained no lead.

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I am not so sure that lead is what has caused the difference. Among my paints are tins from somewhere in the late nineties that are fine but recent tins have a totally different 'gloopy' consistency and even feel different to the touch. I would suspect that they are using totally different, probably cheaper, pigments and possibly a cheaper alkyd base. The thing is that I suspect that they made so much in each batch that they don't want to scrap the duff stuff, especially in the light of the problems the company has been suffering from lately. Say even if they only made 100 litres of each of the duff paints that is still over seven thousand 14ml tinlets. That's around twelve grands worth on the shelf per colour which is a lot to lose plus production costs and time to make new paint compared to keeping schtum and hoping that folks won't raise a stink, maybe even buy several tinlets in the hopes of finding a good 'un. Not nice but I am guessing that would be the businessmans choice of action.

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I would agree that the complaints about Humbrol paint only appeared this century, after the movement of production to China. Whatever the changes after 1992, they didn't seriously affect the quality of the paint. There may have been alterations in specific colours, but these varied throughout Humbrol production anyway.

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On 7/22/2016 at 7:38 AM, vh-bob said:
vh-bob, on 22 Jul 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:vh-bob, on 22 Jul 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:vh-bob, on 22 Jul 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:vh-bob, on 22 Jul 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:vh-bob, on 22 Jul 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Thanks to all those who replied, the answer is in here somewhere. I was at first hesitant to post this and wondered if it was only me with the problem but having read this it seems that the problem is fairly wide spread. As for rambling replies, Azureglo, I appreciate the effort you put in, no apology needed. Am I to assume that the passionate purple paint is to be sprayed on to a Clay Lacey Mustang ?. And by the way the VH-BOB moniker is from a CAC built Mustang A68- 104 in which, due to the generosity of my late wife, I once spent a half hour aloft in.

Thanks to all, Trev.

Ah Bob, you know my nefarious multicolour ambitions too well, yes I too snagged a sheet of the Rocketeer Miss Van Nuys decals when they briefly re-appeared. BTW take note of Beardie & Sovereign Hobbies, they really seem to know more than us mere mortals who think a purple Mustang is cool!

As for the original Humbrol question, maybe a bit of experimenting, with thinners and primers would not go amiss but interestingly both Sovereigns (ex WEM) Colourcoats and Xtracolor enamels are said to be self etching, i.e. they bond at a molecular level as described here. Maybe this may work for you as there many here who airbrush straight onto unprimed plastic with good results.

Me , If I don't get a whiff of Mr Levelling every now and then, I'm not happy...cough...

A

Edited by azureglo
broken link to swannys ex-website fixed
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Azurglo, You have struck a familiar chord here as I too have a chronic cough. Then again it may be just coincidence and nothing to with paint. Perhaps we should start a thread about exotic diseases and the modeller.

Back to the spray booth, Trev.

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. . . When I first used Humbrol enamel more years ago than I care to remember, it was made by the Humber Art Oil Company, it was petroleum based and thinned with petrol and came in 6 or so glass Phials on a card . . .

I guess you go back further than me, my first experience of Humbrol here in Canada was the early 1960s, always in the tinlet.

I'm a little surprised at the assertion that Humbrol was petroleum based. Oil certainly but I always thought it smelled like linseed oil, familiar to me from woodworking in my eighth grade shop class. It could be thinned with mineral spirits, turpentine or - just for fun - gasoline but we didn't spray in those days and mostly it went on well right out of the tinlet.

Then came Authentics, the best paint ever.

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My main problem with Humbrol is their matt enamel rattle cans. Those things stop working with irritating frequency. :thumbsdown:

I've had another one die on me today! <_<

Mike.

Edited by MikeR
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