magwitch Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Either way MPA crews will no doubt be looking forward to being exiled to Morayshire again. Particularly those who have been involved with Seedcorn in sunnier climes. LOL. I never thought of that. Jacksonville: Lossiemouth: 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 The first Aussie one is now flying, so when did they order?? https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps-news/australian-p-8a-makes-maiden-flight/ Trevor The RAAF selected the P-8 in 2007, but the contract for the first four was formally placed in August 2014. Regarding RAF deliveries, according to flightglobal.com: The first buy in 2017 will cover two aircraft to be delivered in 2019, followed by a three-aircraft buy in 2018 to be delivered in 2020. The remaining four will be ordered in 2019 and delivered in 2021. The first aircraft delivery will be in April 2019, Peters says, followed by the second in December that year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 ^^^^ unless the USN release some of their delivery slots in exchange for ours? I'm sure I've read somewhere though that there will be no early deliveries. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 If that is what the contract says... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff_B Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Don't forget there is a possibility of additional aircraft being ordered under the 2020 SDSR, this initial 9 is to restore MPA capability for the 2020's, There wont be early deliveries as i suspect they need the time to generate the aircrew training and the support facilities first. Now what we really need is GPK to work on a 1/72 P-8 kit as well as its late model 737's !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 (edited) Now what we really need is GPK to work on a 1/72 P-8 kit as well as its late model 737's !!! I'll be happy for Revell to do one in 1/144th! There is also the possibility of additional P8s with AGS radar as a Sentinel replacement, or Wedgetail as a longer term E3 replacement Edited July 15, 2016 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 A common airframe would have great benefit, though in the case of the Sentinel the fleet has a lot of life left in them. The Sentry currently has an out-of-service date of (I believe) 2025, so a Wedgetail buy could be a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglierating Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Not a problem, With Tornado out of service by 2018 -2020, the OCU at Lossie could be disbanded and conversion training undertaken at Marham, freeing up space for the MPA fleet. That's not what I'm hearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dambuster Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 That's not what I'm hearing Don't tell me they've brought it forward to 2017?!!!! Peter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV107 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 A common airframe would have great benefit, though in the case of the Sentinel the fleet has a lot of life left in them. The Sentry currently has an out-of-service date of (I believe) 2025, so a Wedgetail buy could be a possibility. It's 2035 for the E-3D OSD now, moved further to the right by the last SDSR. This is the proposed OSD for Rivet Joint, thus creating the possibility of a common airframe being used to replace both types (although other options involving unmanned aircraft, etc, etc, will no doubt be considered). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglierating Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Somebody mentioned reactivating kinloss....for 9 airframes I really can't see that although that little hotel with the massive baths in forres I think will be pleased. Top breakfast I seem to remember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 It is reported the Apaches will be old ones re-manufactured to the E standard. Janes reports this will cost more then new build E models Boeing has offered? http://www.janes.com/article/53882/uk-requests-remanufacture-of-apaches-to-ah-64e-standard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 It is reported the Apaches will be old ones re-manufactured to the E standard. Janes reports this will cost more then new build E models Boeing has offered? http://www.janes.com/article/53882/uk-requests-remanufacture-of-apaches-to-ah-64e-standard That dates from August last year, so I can only conclude that the bean counters have prevailed and that new airframes are the order of the day. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff_B Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Yeap as the announced Leonardo's (Westland) will maintain the WAH-64 till 2024 when they will be replaced by the new aircraft. Think they may swap out some systems from the old ones to fit in the new ones, but not sure on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV107 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 50 new airframes (including some reused components where practicable) were ordered last week; there was a piece in Jane's about the challenges this poses for Leonardo and the Yeovil factory accompanying the story about the announcement. MoD quote on reuse of parts: "Buying the AH-64E off the shelf allows the MoD to take advantage of the US government's larger production programme in Mesa, Arizona, with the UK benefiting from economies of scale. To further guarantee value for money, systems from the current Apache fleet, such as the Modernised Target Acquisition and Designation System, and the Longbow Fire Control Radar, will be reused and incorporated into the new helicopters where possible." The cost of building in Yeovil was simply far too high Edited July 20, 2016 by XV107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 Private Eye reports that Air Commadore Linc Taylor the assistant chief of staff for 'capability delivery' has suggested that some of the F-35B's may instead be ordered as the A version instead. It wonders whether this is wise given that £2.1bn is to be spent on Typhoon support for the next ten years citing this may be duplication of capability. I'm certainly no defence expert and do not usually get my defence news from the 'Eye', but I thought it worth mentioning none the less. For what it's worth, the mixed A/B fleet idea has been mooted before. Not sure the US Marines (or RAF/FAA?) would be too chuffed as this would surely push up the unit cost of the B? Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Private Eye reports that Air Commadore Linc Taylor the assistant chief of staff for 'capability delivery' has suggested that some of the F-35B's may instead be ordered as the A version instead. The wily RAF will stop at nothing to minimise the risk of F-35s sullying their wheels by contact with an aircraft carrier deck. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV107 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 It's a bit more complicated than the Eye might suggest... Linc Taylor (ex-Harrier mate with a bit of carrier experience... [and stealth, as he was an F-117 exchange chap as well] was asked - not for the first time - about this and gave a fairly broad answer: “What we will do as we go forward into the next SDSR – we have reaffirmed our intent to buy the 138 in the last SDSR – we will look at air force mix,” Taylor told journalists at RIAT. “There is an absolute benefit to maximising combat air power with interoperability with [Eurofighter] Typhoons and the capability from the [Royal Navy's future aircraft] carrier. “We will look at all of those options as we go forward into the next SDSR.” (Source - Flight) He went on to add: “The F-35A offers you a greater range and greater payload. There may be space for an 'A' variant so we will look at 'A' and 'B's in the future, but not the 'C's,” ...The F-35 and Typhoon have complimentary qualities but the Typhoon is not low-observable, it can’t get to where the F-35 can get to." (source - Defense News) So all he's really said is an entirely sensible - 'we'll look at this because we want to keep our options open'; the key word in the last quote above, I would suggest is 'may' - there 'may be space'. The only clear thing he's ruled out is a buy of the C-model. The unit cost projections for the B model weren't pinned on a buy of 138 for the UK anyway, since no-one believed post SDSR 2010 that we'd ever actually have a Secretary of State for Defence who stood up and confirmed that yes, that's what we're planning to do (well, we didn't, since it was the PM who stood up and said it). The reason it makes sense to keep options open is because we're buying the 138 (or at least planning to) over a long period - the last new F-35 won't enter British service until the late 2020s at the earliest, and some projections have pushed this into the early 2030s. That, in turn, raises a number of questions. If the maximum number of F-35s which can ever be embarked is 72 (assumes both carriers at sea at the same time, and a surge of carrier-based air), and this will be the exception rather than the rule (the last public statement was that 12 aircraft would be the routine embarkation), then does every last one of the remaining 66 airframes need to be a STOVL model? Bear in mind that an awful lot more of the training for the F-35 is going to be done in simulators - this is already becoming more common, since squadrons heading off to Red Flag no longer ramp up the amount of live flying they do, but go into the sim to practice (including things which wandering Bears with ELINT gear might take an interest in). That's going to have implications in terms of the F-35's longevity in service because of reduced fatigue index issues; if the aircraft is in keeping with the level of attrition experienced by the most modern types of aircraft, then that'll mean that more of the force is available than would've been the case previously (I very much doubt that we'll be in a situation whereby the RAF and RN have a grand total of 138 airframes in service, though, since the last F-35 we get will enter service 10-15, or possibly even 20, years after the ones we're currently flying, and the chances of not losing a single one to accident, fatigue life running out or even on ops seem really rather slim). So if you have the chance to buy (say) 100 B-models, giving you more than enough capacity to put two 36-strong air wings aboard 2 QE carriers at the same time (which is not a top RN requirement at the moment, and is unlikely to be for a while) while maintaining the OCU, OEU and possibly one other squadron of B-models, and to buy 38 A-models as well, thus giving you the means of deploying a 16-strong squadron on ops alongside the USAF whether or not you deploy the carrier, then it make senses to at least keep that option open. Also bear in mind that when the last British F-35 is projected to enter service (and there's no guarantee that the production line won't stay open for longer than planned - see the F-16, F-15, F/A-18 [Legacy and Super], for instance ) we'll be looking to replace some of the Typhoon force at about the same time. Although you lose the ability to operate from the carrier if you buy the A-model, the difference between that and the B-model might justify a split buy if looking at the aircraft to be a predominantly Typhoon replacement. I'd imagine that having both QE and PoW at sea at the same time, and each with a full complement of F-35s aboard is quite unlikely - as opposed to (say) 40 F-35s between them, along with AEW Merlins, Jungly Merlins and some Chinooks and/or AH-64E, with one of the pair embarking the CHF plus other JHC elements and operating a much smaller number of F-35s . In truth, manpower issues within the RN may mean that getting both carriers to sea at the same time is the sort of thing which occurs once in a blue moon/Falklands-type-war. The question is whether it makes sense to have an all F-35B force by the time we get to the late 2020s, or whether it would be more sensible in terms of providing options, to go for the split buy which seemed a most unlikely possibility only 12 months ago. There have to be enough B models to ensure that the carrier capability isn't compromised, but whether splitting the buy (say) 60:40 between B:A models offers a better overall capability has at least to be considered. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 50 new airframes (including some reused components where practicable) were ordered last week; there was a piece in Jane's about the challenges this poses for Leonardo and the Yeovil factory accompanying the story about the announcement. MoD quote on reuse of parts: The cost of building in Yeovil was simply far too high Streets, common sense prevailing in MOD procurement, whatever next!ps great last post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Wouldn't the "A" be a bit less expensive than the "B" since it dispenses with all the vertical-lift equipment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaVenom Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 It was disgraceful the way those Nimrods were trashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britman Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) A split force of A/B would make sense with enough B's for the carriers and the rest to the RAF. This could also see the the salvation of the Fleet Air Arm ( B ) and a good mix of A type and Typhoon for the RAF. The Typhoon still has a long way to go and as a mixed force would be second to none. Win win? Edited July 21, 2016 by Britman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 It's a bit more complicated than the Eye might suggest... Thank you for an excellent, infomrative post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley John Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 It's a bit more complicated than the Eye might suggest... Very interesting and thought provoking post. Thank you for taking the time to post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 YOu also have to take into account Squarebasher is very anti-RAF - interesting as (or perhaps because) he had a 'brief career in the RAF' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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