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Pierre Clostermann HF Spitfire ?


AlCZ

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I look for photos of Pierre Clostermann´s High Altitude Spitfire. In this machine (with cooperating her friend and Wingman Jaques Remlinger) he shoot down an German spy plane (probably Bf-109G-5 ?).

I´m not sure it is a Mk. VII or Mk. VIII (i can built it in small scale from brand new Eduard Mk. IX and ignored a diferrences (in this small scale ) between versions...

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On the 20th February F/L W.G.Bennetts and F/O 'Ian' Blair made an uneventful scramble in Mk Vs at 10.55. Two hours later they were called for another scramble. This time Bennetts taking off in Mk VII MB763 DU*W and Blair in Mk VII MD114 DU*G. They climbed to 32,000 ft and saw vapour trails. Ground control confirmed it was an enemy aircraft. Blair gave chase but the EA spotted the Spitfires and turned for home. Blair opened fire at extreme range with no result. Bennett opened fire at 250 yards but his gunsight stop working and he broke off. Blair closed and fired at 200 yards. The starboard wing of the EA broke off and fell into the sea. The pilot, Oberleutnant Helmut Quednau of 1.(F)/120 was killed in his Bf 109 G-6/R3 coded A6+XH. Debris from the EA hit the radiator of Blair's Spitfire and he made a forced landing at Stronsay.


There is no mention of Pierre Clostermann in official documentation

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Differences from a Mk.IX include a pressurised cockpit with deeper rear cockpit transparency, retractable tailwheel, shorter ailerons and leading-edge fuel tanks. All (except perhaps the tanks) clearly visible in 1/72 scale. If you want to use the Eduard kit rather than one of the alternatives then I'd advise waiting for the Mk.VIII - assuming that Eduard do not intend producing a Mk.VII. This seems likely to me, not least because the aircraft were carrying the DU codes of the Czech 312 Sq. The high altitude fighters were based at Skeabrae and used in rotation by squadrons resting from combat in the south: for some reason the units after the Czech one retained the DU codes rather than using their own and these became the official codes of the Skaebrae Station Flight.

Although a G-5 or G-8 might seem more logical, the Bf109G was a variant of the G-6 with underwing tanks.

Edited by Graham Boak
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On the 20th February F/L W.G.Bennetts and F/O 'Ian' Blair made an uneventful scramble in Mk Vs at 10.55. Two hours later they were called for another scramble. This time Bennetts taking off in Mk VII MB763 DU*W and Blair in Mk VII MD114 DU*G. They climbed to 32,000 ft and saw vapour trails. Ground control confirmed it was an enemy aircraft. Blair gave chase but the EA spotted the Spitfires and turned for home. Blair opened fire at extreme range with no result. Bennett opened fire at 250 yards but his gunsight stop working and he broke off. Blair closed and fired at 200 yards. The starboard wing of the EA broke off and fell into the sea. The pilot, Oberleutnant Helmut Quednau of 1.(F)/120 was killed in his Bf 109 G-6/R3 coded A6+XH. Debris from the EA hit the radiator of Blair's Spitfire and he made a forced landing at Stronsay.
There is no mention of Pierre Clostermann in official documentation

In that context, a couple of people here cite conversations with men who flew with Clostermann. His account of his participation in this action is fiction, as apparently are many other exploits that he recounted in "The Big Show". The extent of his involvement was that he flew out in a Tiger Moth to pick Blair up from Stronsay afterwards.

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When you need a competetion kit yup, but i´am a weekend builder with limited building skills (see on my another kits here in gallery)... And small scale isn´t for me a priority (i prefer quarter scale and 1/32)...

Italeri make a Mk. VII but this is a horrible kit (when you compared it with another kits from last time - Airfix, Sword, AZ/KP and Eduard...).

Edited by AlCZ
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Nothing to do with being a competition modeller, just about getting it as right as possible. Or not, as the mood takes you...

It's worth suggesting that, though lacking access to Clostermann's logbooks for confirmation, it is quite likely that he will have flown one of these machines during his time in Orkney.,

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The Station Flight at Skeabrae was equipped mainly with Mk VIIs. Usually one flight of the squadrons sent north was based on detachment at Skeabrae while the other flight was based at Sumburgh with Mk Vs. It was customary for aircraft, including Mk V and Mk VI as well as Mk VII, to remain at Skeabrae and units posted normally consisted of pilots and ground crew who took over the Skeabrae aircraft leaving their own aircraft behind. Over a year 312, 118, 453, 602 and 313 squadrons passed through Skeabrae. After 312 Squadron left in September 1943 the Spitfires continued to use 312's DU codes. It is believed that this was an oversight by the squadron replacing 312 Squadron and this became an entranced practice. This was not unique, Northolt Station and Wing Headquarter Flights used 316 Squadrons's SZ codes. The Czechs used three Spitfire VIIs, MB763/DU-W, MB765, MB828. Later there was another, MD122/DU-Z. MD114/DU-G was allocated to the Station Flight Feb 1944.



Operationally, the Skeabrae Mk VIIs saw little use. 312 Squadron did not report any operational flights with the Mk VII between August and October 1943. 118 Squadron, which replaced 312 in October did not use the Mk VIIs either and 453 Squadron flew one uneventful scramble on 7th November. F/O McDermott, MB828/Y and P/O Ferguson, MB765/G to 37,000 ft without finding the three bandits that had vanished. Only three flights out of 50 were flown on Mk VIIs during November and two out of 50 during December and none during January. 602 Squadron replaced 453 in mid-January but the Mk VIIs were only used to complement aircraft numbers and not regarded as main equipment. Three flights out of 14 were recorded during January and four out of 50 in February with the first victory for a MK VII from Skeabrae. 602 Squadron was replaced by 118 Squadron who recorded only two scrambles. On 21st May, W/OA A Taylor in MD122 and F/Sgt C H P Bayton in MD138 and on 30th May F/O J J Parker RAAF in MD118 and W/O A Taylor in MD138. The first time the section returned to base with nothing to report, the second, shot down a Ju 88 approx 25 miles from Kirkall. It was the second and last victory for an Orkneys based Mk VII. 313 Squadron arrived on the 11th July with a significant number of pilots that were non-Czech. Operations began the next day and uneventful scrambles and patrols are recorded that month but generally air activity was low. 313 Squadron continued to use their time flying the aircraft of the Skeabrae Station Flight, usually to train pilots with no experience on the type. The Mk VII seems to have been used during July and August only. On the 15th July P/O Robert E Dodds wrecked MB763/DU-Z when he overshot on landing and tipped up.

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Lack of enemy air activity? Had the planned Mistel attack on Scapa Flow happened, there'd have been rather more use for these fighters against preliminary recce, although the Mk.Vs would have been good enough against the bombers.

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Yes, but I would think that if you were at some distant, quiet outpost, you'd be keen to play with the hottest new version, rather than the familiar old Mk.Vs. Scarcity might have been a factor, too- serviceability, perhaps, or saving them for the possibility of actual need?

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Yes, I'm sure the "type hogs" would have been eager to get their hands on them, but given that there were only a very small number of Mk.VIIs being held at readiness for German PR flights, they simply wouldn't have been available for joy rides. 3 aircraft at about 80% serviceability doesn't provide a lot above the needs of standby. Post #8 talks about their use for experience flights, but these wouldn't have been listed as operational. I love Orkney, but the weather conditions in the Northern islands must have been a major factor in low usage.

It might be interesting to find out just what the RAF was doing with their other Mk.VIIs: they don't seem to have got a lot of use out of them.

Edited by Graham Boak
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In that context, a couple of people here cite conversations with men who flew with Clostermann. His account of his participation in this action is fiction, as apparently are many other exploits that he recounted in "The Big Show". The extent of his involvement was that he flew out in a Tiger Moth to pick Blair up from Stronsay afterwards.

The descriptions even differ in different editions of the book - in the English edition the other pilot is "Ian" (Blair?) but in the French language version the other pilot involved is quoted as "Jacques" (Remlinger?), obviously to improve the story for Fench consumption.

I think Clostermann himself admitted the book was 'faction' although I'm not sure he used that word.

Edited by rossm
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The descriptions even differ in different editions of the book - in the English edition the other pilot is "Ian" (Blair?) but in the French language version the other pilot involved is quoted as "Jacques" (Remlinger?), obviously to improve the story for Fench consumption.

I think Clostermann himself admitted the book was 'faction' although I'm not sure he used that word.

I read somewhere that it's a fairly common technique for French autobiography. I've no idea whether that's true or not but, if so, I suppose a French readership would see nothing contentious in Clostermann's departure from the facts. I suspect he's not alone in this: even as a boy, I found some difficulty in accepting the complete accuracy of the ghost-written account in "Fly for Your Life" of an incident in which Robert Stanford-Tuck killed a crew member of a force-landed Bf 110, supposedly because the German had put a bullet into the Triplex windscreen of Tuck's Hurricane, from the ground, with a "Schmeisser machine pistol".

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in the thread on Clostermann's Tempest here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235004727-le-grand-charles-clostermanns-tempest/

it links to Falke Eines/Neil's blog

http://falkeeinsmodel.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/clostermanns-tempest-jfe-nv-724.html

discusses his claims etc, but note this

'Avions' magazine in their Clostermann special (issue 151) - the best recent and most detailed account of Clostermann's career - do not even attempt a compilation of Clostermann's score. Indeed, author Christophe Cony, a friend of Clostermann's, refers to 'The Big Show' as a 'roman' - or novel. In 'Avions' No. 100 Clostermann's score was given as 24 confirmed and nine probables, making Clostermann the leading French ace of WWII. His 'official' score as promulgated by the French Air Force historical service (formerly SHAA, now SHD) is still 33 victories.

HTH

T

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I read somewhere that it's a fairly common technique for French autobiography. I've no idea whether that's true or not but, if so, I suppose a French readership would see nothing contentious in Clostermann's departure from the facts. I suspect he's not alone in this: even as a boy, I found some difficulty in accepting the complete accuracy of the ghost-written account in "Fly for Your Life" of an incident in which Robert Stanford-Tuck killed a crew member of a force-landed Bf 110, supposedly because the German had put a bullet into the Triplex windscreen of Tuck's Hurricane, from the ground, with a "Schmeisser machine pistol".

Indeed, we're well known to adapt history to what's suit us...

Clostermann put some historians/authors in front of the court just because they suggested that his victory total was not really that high.

And he won, because he did have some official documents as proofs.

Do not forget that he served in HQ in London between tours... and went to politic shortly after the war.

A Great Warrior, but then also a politician.

I've heard he was not so well perceived among the FAFL community, something to do with being wingman to Cdt Mouchotte the day he was lost...

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As has been mentioned before the French magazine Avions number 151 for May/June 2006 contains a lot of material including many photos and colour drawings similar to those in the 2 TAF books. The captions are sufficiently detailed that it is clear a lot of research has gone into the drawings and some uncertainties are noted where applicable. Many of these photos and drawings also appeared in Avions 138 but 151 contains a lot of text covering his whole career, being the issue following his death. My French isn't good enough to extract the complete meaning of the text but there are sections on the disappearance of Mouchotte (which I have heard led to his being posted away from 341 - a French squadron) and on how scoring was done - including something I didn't know, that from the end of 1944 RAF pilots were credited with aircraft destroyed on the ground as full claims in order to encourage them to press on against the flak surrounding airfields, although not all RAF pilots took advantage of this.

The incident with the Spitfire VII / Bf109G is hardly mentioned but what is there seems to fit the official record with no mention of Clostermann being involved.

There is a photo, in both issues, of his scoreboard on one of his Spitfires where there are different symbols for 'certain', 'probable' and 'damaged' and that on his Tempest has two different symbols although I have not seen the meaning stated.

I imagine that in spite of his not being in favour with ex-colleagues in 341 it was preferable for him to be the top scoring French pilot rather than Le Gloan who was with the 'wrong' side even though under French commanders and that those who were not necessarily aware of the subtleties just counted the number of crosses without worrying about what they stood for - I think Clostermann did not suggest they were all air-to-air 'certain' kills but that they covered the full range of what could be claimed, maybe under French rules not RAF ones, and as perceived at the time.

My index tells me Scale Aircraft Modelling Vol 22 page 354 has a letter from Clostermann, although I don't have it to hand I remember a somewhat grumpy tone, probably due to having to contradict something or explain things for the umpteenth time.

Edited by rossm
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There was an incident a few year before his death when he was accused in a journal (don't remember which), involving also Johnnie Johnson. Closterman was accused of wearing the rib of the DSO, which he was never awarded. He replied a month later that it was his Legion d'honneur, which actually had a red coloured rib. But the incident was typical of the sometimes not to kind acceptance of him as one of the fine foreign airmen in the RAF.

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There was an incident a few year before his death when he was accused in a journal (don't remember which), involving also Johnnie Johnson. Closterman was accused of wearing the rib of the DSO, which he was never awarded. He replied a month later that it was his Legion d'honneur, which actually had a red coloured rib. But the incident was typical of the sometimes not to kind acceptance of him as one of the fine foreign airmen in the RAF.

From memory, it was in Scale Aircraft Modelling. Someone referred to the DSO accusation by Johnnie Johnson; comments were also made about the accuracy of Clostermann's victory claims and it was suggested that he had taken the Argentinean side during the Falklands War because of his marriage to an "Argentine beauty"! He wrote a dignified response, pointing out that the ribbon was that of the Legion d'honneur, which, as he was a French national, took precedence over all his other decorations. He also pointed out that his wife was French, but that he had met some of the Argentine pilots before the war and respected them - while elements of the British press had nothing but jeering abuse. I too suspect that the readiness among some of his RAF peers to express dislike for Clostermann had a lot to do with his being foreign - not "one of us".

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Text of both ltters in full from 2000.

Pierre Clostermann Lives

Dear Neil,

Whilst I enjoyed your article on converting Ocidental's Spitfire IX kit using the new RonsResin re-shaped nose,and propeller, etc (SAM Vol 22/7), the supplementary information you included on French 'ace' Pierre Clostermann is, I am afraid, totally inaccurate!

Firstly, the English translation of his book, 'Le Grande Cirque', is called 'The Big Show' not 'The Big Circus', more importantly, its author would be most surprised to learn that he died in a motoring accident in the 1950s! In fact, as recently as June 1996, Clostermann was living in St Genis des Fontaines, Montesquieu, France.

Only two years previously, he had added further controversy to his reputation when he was seen (by no less a personage than AVM 'Johnnie' Johnson), wearing the ribbon of the DSO at the D-Day commemorative ceremonies at Bayeux, in northern France, despite the fact that he'd never been awarded the medal! And at the start of the Falklands Campaign in 1981, he wrote, in an Argentinian newspaper, something of a eulogy to the prowess of the nation's fighter pilots, much to the disgust of his old RAF comrades, who reasoned that

his marriage to an Argentinian beauty had perhaps coloured his thinking!

Historians continue to scrutinize Clostermann's air combat claims, and recent research suggests a total of 11

destroyed; 3 probables; I damaged. He seems to have had an unfortunate penchant for claiming aircraft downed by others in his unit if he was merely present at the time, and did not actually fire his guns! His greatly exaggerated claims have brought him no respect from the cognoscenti; none of his Free French comrades support his claims, even though they are less openly critical of him than his non-Gallic counterparts. Of course none of this detracts from Clostermann s obvious bravery and competence as a fighter pilot of course, and I too was a huge fan of his book.

Incidentally, I learned much of the foregoing when in correspondence with other well known WW2 fighter pilots as part of the research I was undertaking for a book on the subject, and it was sobering to learn that much of what's written in its pages may probably be not wholly true.

Adam G Holden

Brighton

East Sussex

Putting the Record Strait

Dear Neil

I was a little disgusted by Adam Holden's letter, which you published in SAM vol 22/3 May 2000. On principle I do not usually answer letters of this sort, but in view of my Tempest friends from No 3 Squadron, I feel I owe them answer.

First the Falklands War. I never wrote to an Argentinean newspaper, but sent a letter to a group of Argentinian pilots who were pupils of my son, (then an Armée de l'Air Mirage pilot), at the Mirage Academy in Dijon. I knew them and they even came to my house when they were on leave. When I read the insults printed in the UK tabloid newspaper, 'the SUN', (greasers, tango dancers, etc.) I wanted to tell these 'underdogs' that some people admired their courage. It is an admitted fact these days by all – (including the US Air Force and RAF) – that “the courage of your enemies honours you”, and it should not be forgotten. Also, being an MP, with political responsibilities I am entitles to my opinions. They had nothing to do with my long-standing friendship and love for the RAF.

Secondly, I was never married to an 'Argentinean beauty'. I have been married for 53 years to a French girl.

As to my claims, they never changed. They were painted on my Tempest, (see accompanying photo), and substantiated by the following citations and letters. My two DFC citations by AIR Marshal Slessor and 83 Group Sir Harry Broadhurst, are enough for me.

“DFC 26/8/44 …..... This officer has displayed outstanding courage and devotion to duty throughout his operational career in the course which he has destroyed at least 11 enemy aircraft and damaged other military objectives”.

“Bar 28/5/45..... Since being awarded the DFC this officer has participated in 70 new operational missions during which he has destroyed a further 12 enemy aircraft. Throughout, Lieutenant Clostermann has displayed outstanding courage and ability, and has proved to be a source of inspiration to all”.

23 black crosses and 23 confirmed by my DFC citations. I never personally asked for anything else. There were I suppose two problems;

ONE, I have been in so many squadrons, Nos 341, 602, 486, 274, 56, and 3, that the forms 540 and 541 'Logs of Claims' were quite spread out.

TWO, the French Air Force – as well as the US 8th Fighter Command, considered 'probables' and destroyed 'on the ground' as victories. This may explain some of the ridiculously inflated claims we found in the press, about me and many American pilots. I tried to rectify often, but to no avail!

Finally the statement about the DSO. I am a Chevalier of the Legion d'Honneur, which, as a French national, takes precedence over my DFC, and therefore, is worn 'infront' of it. It is red with a blue tinge – as is the DSO …...

Pierre Clostermann

Montesquiei des Albères

France

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Pierre Clostermann indeed meet some Argentine pilots before the war.

His son served in Armée de l'Air, in 2eme escadre flying the Mirage IIIE, and while there he trained some Argentine IIIEA pilots.

Remember also that his father was a diplomat, and Pierre lived for some time in Brasil before the war.

Edited by Antoine
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