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Strange B-17E Camo Scheme


e8n2

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I have ended up with two Academy B-17Es, with one slated to be finished in the Hawaiian Air Depot scheme from the DK Decals sheet. While checking for images I found this shot from a Dutch site:

http://strijdbewijs.nl/birds/b17/b1717.jpg

To me it looks like Dark Earth and Dark Olive Drab over either Deep Sky or Deep Mediterrianian Blue. According to Joe Baugher's serial number search engine, the aircraft was always stationed in the U.S. Any insight on the colors of this aircraft would be appreciated.

Later,

Dave

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American paints for Dark Earth and Dark Green over Deep Sky. This was understood to be the RAF scheme for high-flying bombers (i.e.B-17s) although Geoff Thomas spent some time showing that the colour actually used on the Fortress Mk.Is was PRU Blue. However, it doesn't look like PRU Blue on this aircraft.

PS it was Dark Mediterranean Blue not Deep. But not in this case.

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This scheme was featured in the June 1988 issue of Aircraft Modelworld as part of a B-17 series by Geoff Thomas. The article, presented by Scott Thomas and Dana Bell. featured a copy of an original Boeing drawing supplied by Dana Bell. Unfortunately the printed copy is, in some places indistinct but the colours given are :-

Dark Earth - Fullers TL8713

Dark Green - Fullers TL8714

Deep Sky Blue - Fullers TL8497 (?) The second digit is indistinct.

The Roundel Red shade is give as "Shade No.45 Bulletin No.41 - Fullers TL 9705" (?). This colour was, so I understand, a flat version of Insignia Red and based upon the Dull Red as used by the RAF.

A separate shade of Red, shown as Fullers 8710, was used to outline the wing walks.

The colour photo on the front cover shows clearly that the upper surface colours were "Brown/Green". It's just a pity that the copy of the drawing was not printed a bit clearer.

HTH

Dennis

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American paints for Dark Earth and Dark Green over Deep Sky. This was understood to be the RAF scheme for high-flying bombers (i.e.B-17s) although Geoff Thomas spent some time showing that the colour actually used on the Fortress Mk.Is was PRU Blue. However, it doesn't look like PRU Blue on this aircraft.

PS it was Dark Mediterranean Blue not Deep. But not in this case.

When the Titanine PRU paint samples from Benson were sent to manufacture three colours were included - Special PRU Pink, Special PRU Blue and Special Blue - Fortress. The latter sample was only marked 'Deep Sky' on its envelope. From the documentation with the samples it is easy to conclude that the Fortress colour was the PRU Blue - although I don't know if that was the basis for Geoff Thomas' assertion. It is clear that the colour intended for the Fortress (and subsequent deliveries) was Deep Sky. The actual Titanine Deep Sky sample is shown at my blog together with the Fuller Deep Sky Blue (Stratosphere) - April 2009 entry. They appear exactly similar and the Titanine sample is identical to MAP Deep Sky which is just a little lighter and brighter than FS 15080.

FWIW I have seen various "corrections" of the photo linked above which render the appearance of the undersurface either closer to PRU Blue or closer to Deep Sky.

Nick

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No, that wasn't the basis of Geoff Thomas's arguments. He based his original comment on a piece of the aircraft recovered in Norway, It was somewhat controversial because of the report of Deep Sky from a highly respected observer at the time (Edit: Rupert Moore) that had been reprinted in a post-war Harleyford guide for modellers. However, Thomas followed this up by finding contemporary memos to confirm his point, and these were reprinted in, IIRC, a Scale Aircraft Modelling article.

Edited by Graham Boak
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When questions are posted like this I am always amazed at the wealth of information offered by others. I like reading them and find them most informative but I also feel like all I could add would look something like:

Uh....... it looks like some kinda green and brown and blue color..... probably painted on....... :mental:

Seriously, you guys are very knowledgeable! :mike:

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The Harleyford book was perhaps Own Thetford's 1946 'Camouflage 1939-42 Aircraft' in which C Rupert Moore illustrated Fortress I with an under surfaces colour like MAP Azure Blue which the text described as a "brilliant azure blue".

There was a longish thread about this subject at The Aviation Forum where 'antoni' provided the following information:-

"Some question still remains as to whether Deep Sky ever found its way onto a 90 Sqn Fortress. Deep Sky originated during 1941 as a result of work carried out by the RAE at Farnborough, to devise a suitable camouflage colour for use on under surfaces of high altitude aircraft. Beginning in January 1941, with the then new colour Azure Blue, by May 1941, the colour had been progressively darkened by up to 30 percent. The resulting hue, called 'Ultra Blue' by the RAE, was submitted to the Air Ministry on 13 May 1941 where it was discovered to be almost identical to Titanine's Cosmic blue.
"These results were shared with the Director of Scientific Research at the MAP who was of the opinion that a much darker shade of blue would give better results than the blues which had been tried up to that time, and by the end of May 1941 further work had been put in hand with two new shades, Dark Ultra Blue and Extra Dark Ultra Blue being ready for trials in June 1941. On 11 August 1941, A&AEE Boscombe Down wrote to the RAE suggesting that the colour adopted should be similar to Extra Dark Ultra Blue but that it should be more dull, whilst the finish should be as matt as the Night fighter black, (ie Special Night). The entire fuselage surface and wing under surface should be covered with the camouflage blue. The roundels should be deleted.
"In the light of this, it would appear that the colour was adjusted slightly, and on 27 August 1941, the RAE wrote to the MAP enclosing a sample panel of the colour which the RAE was recommending for the camouflage of the under surfaces of high altitude aircraft as a result of the trials carried out by A&AEE Boscombe Down. The name Deep Sky was suggested for the new colour and the finish was more matt than the standard Type S finish to obviate the 'sun glint' observed on fuselages at high altitudes.
"On 5 September 1941, a Postagram was sent from the Air Ministry to HO Bomber Command and HO Coastal Command informing them that the high altitude camouflage trials carried out by A&AEE at Boscombe Down had indicated that the colour then in use on Fortress Mk Is in Bomber Command and PRU aircraft in Coastal Command was not so good as the Ultra Blue Extra Dark shade produced by the RAE for use in the trials. It was requested that each Command should state whether they wished to undertake operational trials of the new colour themselves before adopting the finish, or whether they wished for arrangements to be made for all high altitude aircraft to be given the new finish on the strength of the RAE recommendation.
"The question was debated only briefly at HO Bomber Command in two memos, dated 9 September 1941. In the first memo, the suggestion was put to the Group Captain (Operations) that arrangements should be made to paint the Fortresses in the 'extra dark blue paint' without carrying out any further service trials. The Group Captain (Operations) then sent a similar memo to the SASO who ticked the memo and initialled it 'RS' the following day, with the Group Captain (Operations) being asked to take the necessary action to inform the Air Ministry and 2 Group on 11 September.
"The Chief Engineering Officer at HO Bomber Command was informed of the decision in a memo dated 13 September 1941, which stated that the SASO had agreed that Fortress aircraft of 2 Group were to be painted in the 'extra dark blue' as recommended by the RAE without conducting any further trials and that arrangements therefore needed to be made to have this work carried out.
"The MAP had been informed of this decision by 25 September, when an internal Minute was circulated to a number of departments stating that the under surface colour recommended by Boscombe Down for High Flying Aircraft had been accepted by Bomber Command without further trial with the request that this finish should be made available for application to the under surfaces of all Fortresses. It was requested that the new colour be given a proper name and that it should be allocated DTD and Vocabulary of Stores reference numbers. The memo went on to state that supplies of the new colour would be required by HO 2 Group at Polebrook and at Burtonwood, and that arrangements should be made to apply this colour to Fortresses at Aircraft Servicing Units as soon as it became available.
"By 3 October 1941, the MAP had arranged to supply the new colour for use on Fortresses. The name given to the colour, as suggested by the RAE on 27 August, was to be Deep Sky and the areas on the aircraft to which it will be applied were those defined by No 2 Pattern, including the sides of the fin and the rudder. This became known as No 2 Pattern (Day). Coastal Command had stated that they were satisfied with Cosmic Blue which was now officially named PRU Blue. The MAP are thought to have given instructions for the B-17Es which were expected to be delivered under Lend-Lease to have Deep Sky under surfaces on 6 October 1941. As can be seen from this, by October 1941 both Bomber Command and the MAP had sanctioned the use of Deep Sky on Fortresses but whether any of No 90 Squadron's aircraft ever received this finish is unknown.
"In the past it has been suggested that the only Fortress Mk I to receive Deep Sky under surfaces was AN526, during its time at Colerne in 1942 after the type had been withdrawn from front line service in Bomber Command. AN526 was apparently used as a 'live target' for both radar and interceptors as Fighter Command attempted to develop tactics to counter high altitude bombers as it was expected that the Luftwaffe might shortly begin to operate such aircraft over the UK. It has also been claimed that some 90 Sqn aircraft not only received Deep Sky under surfaces but also Red code letters, but again this cannot be confirmed.
Whether the Fortress Mk Is which were detached to the Middle East in November 1941 ever had Deep Sky under surfaces is also unknown."
My only issue with any of that is that the documentation accompanying the sample of Deep Sky referred to in my previous post is dated 17 Aug 1941.
Nick
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For me the photo is coloured - the intensity of colours on airplanse and a complete gray-grey sky and clouds...Does not match...

Novertheless - underside could be PRU blue, but due to poet lincence of somone who colorised i - it does not look like PRU

Uppersides can be Dark Green/Dk Earth as for high altitude strategib bombers operatig during day (like Well Mk VI). By the way - this is not Fortress I - it looks for me like B 17 E... - so is it Fortress Mk II in RAF nomenclature?

Cheers

J-W

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J-W: I don't think it is colourised, and don't really see why it should be assumed to be, but yes it is a Fortress II.

Nick: I suspect that is indeed the book, but although I have seen it I don't have it in my collection. Moore not Payne - thank you. A quick look in what passes for an index of my modelling magazines proved fruitless, but 'antoni' does not state what colour was being used on the Fortress Is immediately before October 1941, so both could be right. However, I don't see that this as an argument against it being Deep Sky on the Mk.II in the photo, and indeed I'd say that the evidence presented above rather proves it.

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J-W: I don't think it is colourised, and don't really see why it should be assumed to be, but yes it is a Fortress II.

Nick: I suspect that is indeed the book, but although I have seen it I don't have it in my collection. Moore not Payne - thank you. A quick look in what passes for an index of my modelling magazines proved fruitless, but 'antoni' does not state what colour was being used on the Fortress Is immediately before October 1941, so both could be right. However, I don't see that this as an argument against it being Deep Sky on the Mk.II in the photo, and indeed I'd say that the evidence presented above rather proves it.

Agreed. There a July 1941 memo from Director of Operational Requirements stating that the Fortress I colour was 'Cosmic blue' (a proprietary Titanine designation) and a minute stating that was the same as 'Sky Blue'. But a later minute refutes that quite strongly stating that 'Cosmic blue' is NOT 'Sky blue' and that the Fortress colour was a "very dark blue". This is then corrected again to state that Cosmic blue is Sky blue and that the colours concerned were designated 'Ultra Blue - dark and extra dark'.

As the memo refers to the aircraft already being painted 'Cosmic blue' there was possibly a miscommunication somewhere along the line.

Nick

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For information. The two page article, consisting mostly of scans of the drawings, refers to a "1942 official Kodachrome" being used for the front cover :-

owI11P8.jpg

I have taken the above straight from the scanner without any corrections.

The "Painting Instructions" were also enlarged :-

qWADIZ1.jpg

1980's printing !! - Oh Boy - did we suffer.

HTH

Dennis

Edit. The article states that the drawing is dated July 2nd 1941

DR

Edited by sloegin57
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J-W: I don't think it is colourised, and don't really see why it should be assumed to be, but yes it is a Fortress II.

Sorry, Graham - it is neither Fortress I nor Fortress II.

Strangely (for me at least) Fortress II was the RAF name for the B-17F with frameless glass nose. Lowest USAAF serial was 41-24340, 20 a/c used by RAF were given serials FA684 and FA695...713.

USAAF serial 41-9141 belonged to the B-17E, of which variant 45 were supplied to RAF as Fortress IIA, bearing RAF serials FK184...213, FL449...460 and FL462...464.

Nevertheless 41-9141 spent whole her life over the continental USA, perhaps never sporting RAF roundels, though the fin flash appears there clearly...

Cheers

Michael

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OK, I agree - the photo in original quality as it is on cover of a journal in post #15 does not look like colorised, on the contrary to the original link from post #1 where colours, especially the blue from bottom looked really "tuned".

If the machine was flying only in US as Mike claims, this means that photo is only a wartime propaganda shot to demostrate brotherhood in arms and support to Britts by US... - so one should be careful in making any generalisations about colours used on B 17 flying in RAF, I think...

Best regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

Edited by JWM
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Not really: the B-17E was one of those aircraft intended for Britain that were reclaimed by the US before delivery. There's nothing in the photo that screams British apart from the fin flash which few if any would notice, or realise the implications.

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One other British feature retained by the two known B-17Es in this camouflage related to the national insignia. The sizes and locations were totally British, modified by the superimposing of a US star. This is particularly evident above the wings, where the stars were splayed outward to fit around the red centers of the RAF Type B insignia; the inner points of the stars also intersect the red centers.

The same anomaly can be found on a few OD/Gray B-17Es, which were also retained by the US.

Cheers,

Dana

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On 5/30/2016 at 10:20 PM, sloegin57 said:

This scheme was featured in the June 1988 issue of Aircraft Modelworld as part of a B-17 series by Geoff Thomas. The article, presented by Scott Thomas and Dana Bell. featured a copy of an original Boeing drawing supplied by Dana Bell. Unfortunately the printed copy is, in some places indistinct but the colours given are :-

Dark Earth - Fullers TL8713

Dark Green - Fullers TL8714

Deep Sky Blue - Fullers TL8497 (?) The second digit is indistinct.

The Roundel Red shade is give as "Shade No.45 Bulletin No.41 - Fullers TL 9705" (?). This colour was, so I understand, a flat version of Insignia Red and based upon the Dull Red as used by the RAF.

A separate shade of Red, shown as Fullers 8710, was used to outline the wing walks.

The colour photo on the front cover shows clearly that the upper surface colours were "Brown/Green". It's just a pity that the copy of the drawing was not printed a bit clearer.

HTH

Dennis

 

Edited by Mark Mackenzie
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After posting my original query, I found somewhere on the web a .pdf file that was Amendments to the MMP book on Coastal Command Fortresses. The file is 44 pages long and states that Dupont paints were used and that the aircraft was painted in the Temperate Land Scheme of DE/DG/Deep Sky Blue. I believe Dana Bell was one of the contributors to the amendments. Thanks for all the input gents.

Later,

Dave

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It is interesting to compare those colours with a post started in 2013 concerning the Brewster Buffalo:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234944628-rn-buffalos/

In this case the colours are the same (except under-surface) ; with Quote from Nick:

Posted 15 August 2013 - 12:33 AM

FWIW Brewster probably applied paints manufactured by Fuller to the British Buffaloes - possibly the same paints that were applied to Bostons destined for the RAF:-

Fuller enamel TL-8713 Brown, Fuller enamel TL-8714 Green and Fuller enamel TL-8715 Blue (Duck Egg).

Unfortunately I've not found any charts or chips for those Fuller paints and the only thing to go on so far are colour photographs of Bostons.

The diffuse reflectivity contrast between the colours on the TLS was 6% and for the TSS only 2% but the contrast of the colours on the original Brewster factory finish can only be gauged from photos and it is all a very inexact science.

My suggestion that Brewster used Fuller paints was refuted as unlikely on the grounds that Brewster was an East coast company whilst Fuller was a West coast company. Fuller used Brewster aircraft types in its advertising but I don't think the origin of the paints applied to the Buffalo have been confirmed.

A Fuller 1942 catalogue has since been shown containing chips for those various colours but measured comparisons have not been forthcoming.

Nick

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Hi

Not sure this is of use :)

Just to quote from the manual i have for a boston dated 6-5-42

lacquers

british dull red insignia fuller TL-8617

"" " blue "" fuller TL-8604

british insignia white fuller TL-8595

british No.7 yellow insignia fuller TL-8605

dark earth camouflage fuller TL-8713

dark green camouflage fuller TL-8714

duck egg blue camouflage fuller TL-8715

cheers

jerry

Edited by brewerjerry
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Fortress I 90 Squadron



According to Paul Lucas.



On 30th April 1941 an internal memo was passed from an Engineering Officer to the Group


Captain (Operations) at HQ Bomber Command, saying that an enquiry had been received from the Air Ministry Operational Requirements Branch as to what camouflage finish Bomber Command required for the B-17Cs and that as far as the engineering branch at HO Bomber Command understood the situation, the aircraft were to operate by day, in which case the camouflage should be Dark Green and Dark Earth for upper and keel surfaces with "duck egg blue camotint, for the under surfaces and enquired whether the Group Captain (Operations) could say whether this was correct. On the 2nd May 1941, the matter was referred to Bomber Command's Senior Air Staff Officer Robert Saundby, with the suggestion that, "the high PRU Spitfire (Blue) scheme", was most suitable. On the same day Saundby agreed to this.



The correspondence between the Air Ministry, MAB HO Bomber Command and 90 Squadron during July 1941 shows that they were not painted with 'Cosmic' but with MAP Sky Blue.



The correspondence begins on the 8th July 1941 when an internal MAP memo stated that, "The Boeing B-17C aircraft in Bomber Command have been coloured on the under surfaces with a similar shade of dope to that of 'Cosmic' blue dope supplied by Messers Titanine Ltd".



There was some confusion over exactly what colour had been applied to the Fortresses, as an internal MAP memo dated 14 July 1941, stated that Cosmic equalled 'Sky Blue' in the Vocabulary of Stores the reference numbers being 33B/266,267,268 for a cellulose finish to DTD 308; and 33B/290,291 and 292 for a synthetic finish to DTD 314 and requested that the Air Ministry Operational Requirements Branch be made aware of this in order that the correct nomenclature could observed.



The response on 27th July was to state that Cosmic Blue was not Sky Blue and confirmation was sought that the correct colour had in fact been applied. In order to do this it was necessary to contact 90 Squadron through HQ Bomber Command. They replied that the under surfaces of their aircraft were finished in Sky Blue and quoted the relevant stores reference numbers. The end result was that, on 17 August 1941, a letter was sent from the Directorate of Operational Requirements at the Air Ministry to the MAP which contained a sample of colour obtained from the PRU at Benson who supplied the initial quantity of dope to Burtonwood. The colour sample was Cosmic Blue and the letter gave particulars of the supplier and specification and asked that the MAP arrange for supplies of this colour dope to be made available to the service at an early date.



So, it appears that the colour eye witnesses describe was MAP Sky Blue rather than Cosmic/PRU Blue. There does not seem to be any existing indications that the error was corrected and 90 Squadon's Fortresses were repainted with Cosmic/PRU Blue but that must be a possibility. At least one Fortress seems have had Cosmic/PRU Blue applied. Paul Lucas:



“Frank Marshall made a trip to Norway where he was shown part of the wreckage from AN525 WP.D which was shot down on 8 September 1941. The sample of fabric had two colours on it, one was close to FS30118 and therefore presumably Dark Earth, whilst the other was close to FS 25109 and therefore presumably Cosmic Blue. Under both these colours there were traces of the original Aluminium finish.”



AN525 was a replacement aircraft so should not be taken as proof that all 90 Squadron were repainted.



Land Temperate/Deep Sky Blue Scheme.



Boeing B-17 Fortress in RAF Coastal Command Service Robert M Stitt. Additions and Amendments:



“The Temperate Land (Dark Green and Dark Earth)/Deep Sky Blue finish applied to B-17E 41-9141 (pages 218 and 220 and page 4) which matches a Boeing drawing dated July 1941 (page 3) for RAF-bound B-17Es originally intended for the high-level bombing role was tentatively suggested to be a one-off.“



“New photographic evidence reveals that, in addition to early deliveries known to have been painted in Dark Olive Drab/Neutral Grey – FK184 (page 33 and page 4), FK187 (page 28), FK190 (page 42) and FK193 (page 29) – a number of B-17Es were indeed delivered to Britain in Temperate Land/Deep Sky Blue, including FK185 and FK198 (pages 2 and 5). (Continued page 4).”



They can be downloaded here, click on the red Amendments – 23.11.15



http://mmpbooks.biz/ksiazki/123



Nowhere, in the book or the amendments, can I find where Stitt states that DuPont paints were used. If you can please tell me where.


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