Finnish Dornier Do 17 in snow camouflage - or even not.

[Graham Boak]

I am about to start the Airfix Dornier 17, but have an old Frog one to make too. One Luftwaffe scheme is enough, but I fancied a Finnish one with the white overpaint. However, my references differ as to their basic scheme. Either they retained the Luftwaffe 70/71 splinter, or they were repainted into the Finnish olive green and black. I don't have a lot of photos of them without the white, but they would seem to be in a different pattern to the Luftwaffe which would suggest repainting. Views with the white has such contrast that it is difficult to make out anything about the underlying scheme.

Can anyone either confirm that they retained the original colours before the white was added, or show me what the pattern was in the revised colours?

[neilh]

Hi Graham. A guess, but I have a couple of the Stenman books and we have others in the IPMS Avon club library and I have not seen any pictures of Finnish Dorniers in their original Luftwaffe splinter scheme, so would have suspected they were re finished in Warpaint and then covered in a white distemper in the winter. I have the CA kit instructions for the Finnish boxing. Could scan the camo scheme and send it on Thursday when I return home?

[Vesa Jussila]

Hi Graham,

FAF Dorniers were in local camo.

Br. Vesa

[Graham Boak]

Thank you both: I had previously assumed that the Dorniers had been repainted (at least at some stage, and they weren't new aircraft when delivered) but it was a Finnish source that claimed they retained the original scheme. Hence my query.

Neilh: thanks for the offer. Yes please, any time at your convenience. I still have a couple of Defiants to finish before I start.

[Fernando]

Hi, Vesa, and all,

Do you have by chance a diagram of the camouflage scheme? I guess it should be very simple, but better to play safe.

FErnando

[Vesa Jussila]

Hi Fernando,

There are some diagrams in books that I have in book shelf. I will scan those later today.

Br. Vesa

[AaCee26]

Hello Graham and all,

There was recently an in-dept article of the Dornier camouflages in local IPMS magazine. In fact there were both kinds of winter camouflages (out of memory):

1) First plane or first few painted after delivery early 1942 in Finnish camo and white on top of that.

2) Rest kept their Luftwaffe camouflage and in most cases Schwarz Grün areas were mostly painted white AND demarcation line between upper and lower surfaces was made curvy wih RLM 65.

Later camera plane DN-64 was painted with white distemper over standard Finish scheme.

So exact answers depends on time and individual airframe.

Cheers,

AaCee

[Graham Boak]

As far as the individual airframe goes, I have transfers for black serial DH-53, in snow over Finnish camouflage, postwar white serial DN-60 with Finnish camouflage (both Extradecal), and the original Frog DN-60 in white, but no knowledge of the intended scheme. However, the old Profile has a picture of DN-60 in the Finnish scheme. The unit badge has a thin black surround on Xtradecal, but a thin red surround on Frog. (Keskinen, Stenman & Niska show a dark green surround in Finnish Air Force Camouflage and Markings, which I doubt would show against the camouflage.) The Swastikas are a bright medium blue on Xtradecal, a paler blue on the Frog. Keskinan/Stenman books suggest the deeper blue.

What is annoying is the phrase "standard pattern" quoted in Keskinen & Stenman's Warpaint (SIH 53), when they don't provide this pattern. Xtradecal do show a pattern, but it is printed so small are to be difficult to make out. K&S's FAF Camouflage and Markings has a plan view showing the white predominantly over the RLM 70 in the German scheme, as AaCee says above, but not entirely, and there are no side views. However, isn't DN-63 a little late in delivery to have retained the Luftwaffe scheme? In the same book there are photos of DN-60 and DN-64 in the Finnish scheme.

Can it be assumed that all the Finnish scheme Dorniers had the same pattern of snow camouflage? Not if I compare Xtradecal's DN-53 with K&S's DN-64.

[Vesa Jussila]

I think AaCee can comment more, but "standard pattern" was not that standard. If you look DN-57 and DN-51 black areas are different in those planes and demarcation line is also different. And DN-64 is differs from these as well... I assume that state aircraft factory didn't use any kind of masks during painting. You can only try look pictures.

[Junchan]

There are various patterns in winter camouflage of the Finnish Do 17Zs. A Kaskinen book of Dornier Do 17Z / Junkers Ju 88A-4 includes over 20 photos of the Do 17Z in winter camouflage, along with color profiles and B/W plan view.

http://www.amazon.com/Suomen-Ilmavoimien-Historia-Dornier-Junkers/dp/B00C5PO2U2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1463585368&sr=1-1&keywords=suomen+ilmavoimien+historia+2

Most of them were in Finnish "standard" pattern, but some examples were apparently based on the German splinter pattern.

Some photos and video of the Do 17Z can be found in the Finnish Defence Forces website.

http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneo_carousel1bbn&maxnum=21〈=ENG&timeout=8&auto=NO&startdate=19390101&enddate=19451231&publication=&verification=7aa7d22810600c57792a12b661bdefc8&xsearch_content=dornier&from=7aa7d22510600c57dfda2e484a422a33&count=1&onlyvideo=0&onlycolor=0

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/stats

[AaCee26]

What is annoying is the phrase "standard pattern" quoted in Keskinen & Stenman's Warpaint (SIH 53), when they don't provide this pattern. Xtradecal do show a pattern, but it is printed so small are to be difficult to make out. K&S's FAF Camouflage and Markings has a plan view showing the white predominantly over the RLM 70 in the German scheme, as AaCee says above, but not entirely, and there are no side views. However, isn't DN-63 a little late in delivery to have retained the Luftwaffe scheme? In the same book there are photos of DN-60 and DN-64 in the Finnish scheme.

Can it be assumed that all the Finnish scheme Dorniers had the same pattern of snow camouflage? Not if I compare Xtradecal's DN-53 with K&S's DN-64.

Hi all,

Finnish standard pattern so called "war scheme" had really variation between different planes and different times. Tolerance was less than half a meter, usually... In case of Dorniers they were delivered early 1942. A couple or so planes were painted in the beginning to Finnish colours DN-53 among them which got also winter scheme. This was found to take too much time so rest of the planes were painted over the German livery. They got war scheme when white distemper was removed during spring.

DN-64 was later in Finnish livery and winter scheme. It was a camera ship.

Most of them were in Finnish "standard" pattern, but some examples were apparently based on the German splinter pattern.

Some photos and video of the Do 17Z can be found in the Finnish Defence Forces website.

http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneo_carousel1bbn&maxnum=21〈=ENG&timeout=8&auto=NO&startdate=19390101&enddate=19451231&publication=&verification=7aa7d22810600c57792a12b661bdefc8&xsearch_content=dornier&from=7aa7d22510600c57dfda2e484a422a33&count=1&onlyvideo=0&onlycolor=0

Jun's picture has two first planes in "normal" 1942 Dornier winter scheme. Third has reverse white colour, fourth already in black-green, etc.

SA-kuva link goes directly to some DN-64 pictures in winter scheme.

Cheers,

AaCee

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for the reference, although Amazon.com don't want to send it to me, and from amazon.co.uk it costs more than I can justify.

It is interesting to note that the vertical tails in the photo are generally all white, unlike artwork (and photos of DN-64).

I've just been watching Mary Beard's programme on the fall of the Roman Empire, and one repeated phrase was "..it wasn't as simple as that..." I'm considering adopting that as a phrase for all modelling, not just Finnish Dorniers.

[gingerbob]

Ha ha, but no problem shipping it to me, Graham! P'raps I can loan it to you?

bob