Three Lagg 3 1/72: Roden, Eastern Express, Emhar. White distemper. 3 GiAP Winter '42 Lake Ladoga.

[TonyTiger66]

Hello all
For this group build I will be building three Lagg 3's. All will be in 1/72 but the kits are very different. One each of the Roden kit, the Emhar/Frog/RedStar and the Eastern Express kit.
I will also be using Kuivalainen photo etch sets, Kora wheels and Steelwork undercarriage doors as a minimum of after market to start with. I may use at least one after market seat, also a Falcon canopy and perhaps two Rob Taurus canopies.

All three aircraft can be seen here, they are 'White 68', 'Red 59' and 'Red 52' of 3rd Gv. IAP Baltic Fleet east of Lage Ladoga in winter 1942. All will have varying degrees of white distemper temporary winter camouflage applied:

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/3gviap/3gviap.html

I have the Roden kit, freshly purchased from BNA model world. This kit is a little notorious for the fact that in reality, although it looks nice on the sprues, nothing really fits together well:



Some say with perseverance it is the best Lagg 3 in 1/72. Others say the Dakoplast/Eastern Express is the best. We will see, I am still waiting for that one to arrive.

The third is the very old Red Star/Emhar kit. I only have a bagged version with the parts off the sprues and decals. It came with an instruction sheet for a KPM vac form. Although the instruction sheet may seem useless, it actually has some good plans and reference material in it. This kit is extremely lacking in detail and I hope to steal bits from the Roden and use the other two kits and all resources to make this kit the best it can be. I have made one before and it can be thrown together in a couple of hours, but rather more time and care will be taken on it this time.



The KPM sheet:



I hope to incorporate these three aircraft into a simple, snowy diorama. If anyone can recommend suitable pilot figures please let me know, as this time I'm going to try to include them and have some open canopies

This should keep me busy for a while!
Thanks for looking
Best regards
Tony

Edited for spelling

Edited June 28, 2016 by TonyTiger66

[Basilisk]

Will be an interesting comparison of the three kits. I am looking forward to see your progress.

Cheers, Peter

[Learstang]

Good luck on your LaGG-3s! I recently completed the Roden kit as a LaGG-3 series 4. Sometimes the fit can be a bit iffy, but I think that's due to all the interchangeable parts as you can build basically every version of the LaGG-3 from the one mould. Plus, I think the moulds are getting a little worn. Nonetheless, I've built two of the kits and been pleased with how they came out. They just take a little filler, that's all. I've built the Frog/etc. kit, and although not the most detailed kit, it is an easy build. I'll be interested in the Eastern Express kit as that's one LaGG-3 kit I haven't seen.

Regards,

Jason

[AaCee26]

Sometimes the fit can be a bit iffy, but I think that's due to all the interchangeable parts as you can build basically every version of the LaGG-3 from the one mould. Plus, I think the moulds are getting a little worn. Nonetheless, I've built two of the kits and been pleased with how they came out. They just take a little filler, that's all. I've built the Frog/etc. kit, and although not the most detailed kit, it is an easy build. I'll be interested in the Eastern Express kit as that's one LaGG-3 kit I haven't seen.

Hi all,

I have built a couple of these. Every fitting need to be checked and IIRC wheel wells needed quite a lot fiddling. Also a spreader bar just after the exhaust openings would help to get a neat fit for the upper cowling. Only shape issue disturbing me is the too angular upper part of the canopy sliding part.

What I remember of the Dako kit (= Eastern Express later) it was a dog to built also and it had much more wing taper than Toko/Roden kit which I believe correct.

Cheers,

AaCee

[TheBaron]

Look forwards to seeing these come together Tony. Good luck on this!

Tony

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The Roden kit scares the bejesus outta me.....Best of British Soviet with that one!

[TonyTiger66]

Will be an interesting comparison of the three kits. I am looking forward to see your progress.

Cheers, Peter

Thanks Peter I'm really looking forward to this. I'm waiting on a few bits and bobs from Hannants, then I'll get going.

Good luck on your LaGG-3s! I recently completed the Roden kit as a LaGG-3 series 4. Sometimes the fit can be a bit iffy, but I think that's due to all the interchangeable parts as you can build basically every version of the LaGG-3 from the one mould. Plus, I think the moulds are getting a little worn. Nonetheless, I've built two of the kits and been pleased with how they came out. They just take a little filler, that's all. I've built the Frog/etc. kit, and although not the most detailed kit, it is an easy build. I'll be interested in the Eastern Express kit as that's one LaGG-3 kit I haven't seen.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks Jason That reassures me a little on the Roden. I have the Roden He-111 B and E and they look so lovely in the box, but absolutely nothing fits. I have been building one slowly for 8 months now - its the only way to remain sane with it . The Lagg 3 also looks lovely in the box and I was quite worried it would be the same.

I haven't received the Eastern Express (ex DakoPlast) from Hannants yet, it will probably be another week. It receives excellent reviews - can't wait to see it !

Hi all,

I have built a couple of these. Every fitting need to be checked and IIRC wheel wells needed quite a lot fiddling. Also a spreader bar just after the exhaust openings would help to get a neat fit for the upper cowling. Only shape issue disturbing me is the too angular upper part of the canopy sliding part.

What I remember of the Dako kit (= Eastern Express later) it was a dog to built also and it had much more wing taper than Toko/Roden kit which I believe correct.

Cheers,

AaCee

Thanks AaCee that's very kind and great advice to get me going along with a few less worries. The spreader bar seems to be pretty essential, I saw another build online where the modeller had done the same. I have bought a couple of Rob Taurus canopies, and one set of Falcon canopies from the big 'H'. They arrive soon. I hope they have a better profile.

One aircraft (White 64) has the centre canopy removed, so this one will perhaps be a little easier. I still cannot find a seated pilot figure in 1/72.

Given the number of Eastern European modellers and the passion for Soviet subjects, I find it hard to believe no manufacturer has kitted WWII Soviet pilots. I wish I had the money to invest in a little company, just to produce these and a couple of aircraft (non-Soviet) I feel would sell very well..

Someone will do it soon. In fact, Preiser have a Soviet set (no seated figures) coming out soon. It would be nice if it was released before the end of the GB; I could do some 'Frankenstein' surgery and make seated pilots

https://www.reynaulds.com/products/Preiser/72543.aspx

Look forwards to seeing these come together Tony. Good luck on this!

Tony

Thanks Tony. I'm hoping they go together - I'll need all the luck I can find

The Roden kit scares the bejesus outta me.....Best of British Soviet with that one!

Thanks Sgt. I'm bit scared too. The 'wheel well' thing really is quite clearly an issue. As a Brit in exile, I'm going to give it my best

Well people, I'm waiting for my Eastern Express kit, many canopies and some other bumf to arrive from the big 'H'. I'm also waiting for wheels and undercarriage doors from Steelworks models in Germany.

I'm sorry but it is a little for a week or so, but I'll be back as soon as they arrive with some pictures and opinions.

Thanks for reading and al your help and input,

Best regards

Tony

Edited for spelling

[AaCee26]

Thanks Tiger,

I forgot to mention that Roden is shouting for better wheels. And if I recall correct the Falcon canopy didn't fit into it. I didn't try only windsreen.

Cheers,

AaCee

[AlexN]

Hello Tony,

Interesting - Roden usually make nice kits (three Gladiators and a Mohawk in the collection). Looking forward to seeing how the old Frog shapes up (ribbit).

BNA is a dangerous site - they have just about everything! The staff are very helpful too, cheerfully handling some ordering hiccups that I had. They realise the value of (very) good customer service. Having their warehouse practically inside an airport helps, too. Very clever .

Cheers,

Alex.

[CliffB]

I'm just catching up with this one Tony and what a belter it should be!

I am biased though, because I love anything FROG . Talking of which, did you know that FROG apparantly stands for 'Flies Right off (the) Ground' - referring to their original rubber band powered flying models? I remember my Dad telling me that, so I hope it is true!

Cliff

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That was my understanding too....FWIW.

[JOCKNEY]

Hi Tony

How are things progressing with the builds ?

Cheers Pat

[TonyTiger66]

Hello folks,

Just many thanks for all the positive comments. I must apologise, I had a bit of an accident with my beloved little Panasonic digital camera and some Alclad laquer black base. A huge spillage, shown over on my Amodel I-16 thread.

So, given my iPhone camera is also fairly crippled due to an incident last year with salad dressing (yes you read that correctly) , I've been a bit stuck for taking pictures. .

Anyway, some Alclad airbrush cleaner arrived from BNAModelWorld (*so* reliable) and the little Panasonic digital camera is happy again

Photobucket permitting I'll have some pictures and stuff up here in the next day (it's 12.51 am now here 'down under').

Good progress with all 3 kites; I'm still waiting for some detail sets (wheels and undercarriage doors) to arrive from Steelworks in Germany. The delay isn't their fault, I had to change a lot of my Paypal after someone got into it (and my email). I made that classic error of using the same password just about everywhere .

Thanks for watching folks, I'll be back soon with plastic and paints and files and stuff! . Im rather enamoured with all three kits so far, each has strong and weak points, but each is ultimately a lot of fun.

Best regards

Tony

[Learstang]

Nice to hear you've been working on the LaGGs, Tony - I look forward to seeing the piccies.

Regards,

Jason

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Tony, Tony, Tony.....Modelling products and digital cameras do not always make the best bed fellows, but what ever were you up to?

Glad you got it sorted.....My Sony Alpha stays six feet from my modelling desk unless I'm actually taking photos with it, and I still managed to get CA on the lens cover!

[TonyTiger66]

Hello people!
I'm sorry I don't know how to get the Multiquote to work on my iPhone but I do want to thank everyone for the kind words, and just for popping in to have a look.

That's the main point of this first post, just to have a look at the three different manufacturer's kits and examine the differences. In all fairness the Eastern Express/Dako (also 'Apex', 'Alpha', 'Maquette' is of a slightly more recent vintage (1988?) than the once Frog (planned, test shot 1980), then 'Red Star/Emhar' (1985?)kit. The Roden a little more recent than both, originating as the 'Toko' kit of approx 1994.

I'm no expert on the dates, these are approximates I have gleaned from other modellers discussions and copyright/date info on packaging.

The very first LaGG 3 I ever made was the KPM vac form. I made it around 14 years ago and although the wing fit was tricky, I really recommend it as a first Vacform, it builds into a very nice little model and can be had for a tiny price.

I think it was that experience that gave me a liking for the LaGG 3. I'm afraid as we probably know, the pilots were not so enamoured and decided that the initials La. G.G actually stood for, in Russian, 'Absolutely Guaranteed Varnished Flying Coffin', or some other approximation of this phrase (I've found two different versions of this).

Back to the kits; given the different vintages of the kits; Is newest best?

Hmmm? well, let's keep an open mind and have a look.

It took a while for the Eastern Express kit to arrive so initially I compared this Roden:



With the Frog/Ref Star/Emhar.
Here are the sprues for the Roden and it's clear to see that even though I purchased the 'Type 1,3,5,11' boxing, just about any of the 66 series of LaGG 3 can be made from this kit;
multiple cowl tops, horizontal stabilisers, rudders and exhausts:



Looking at the sprue above then this one, more than one wing type:



Two canopy types:



From the photo above you can also see that there are decals for two different kinds of i/p (instrument panel) but we'll get back to that latter point later.

The Frog (as it will now be referred to) kit in contrast offers only one option and Im not really sure if it represents any particular type:



I am no expert on these so please chip in if you know more. I only have one book on them and my Googling, and a card model plus Massimo Tesditori'sTessitori's excellent website information printed out:



Therefore, the more information the better. The cowl on this model makes it look like a later model, a 35 onwards, the chin intake is very vague so doesn't give much away. The profile of the exhaust stack is vague but more of the single long pipe type I have seen, on Massimo Tessitori's excellent pages, attributed to earlier Types, e.g, 1 to 11. Types after this tend to have the three seperate stacks each side.

One thing is clear from my research; these were a design of warplane in continuous development, hence the 66 'Types'. In the field a lot of improvisation and field repair/substitution of parts took place leading to some extremely hybrid aircraft. I thought the different marks of Spitfire were complicated to describe until I read about this particular kite !

The way I have chosen to model my chosen three aircraft subjects (and therefore kits) is to use the 'recipes' suggested by Massimo for each of them. I have decided to choose the manufacturers kit that gives the best chance of being fairly accurate for each of the aircraft I wish to model.

In this respect the Roden is a godsend, but the Eastern Express is clearly closer to a Type 35 (pictures later) and in some ways so is the Frog, therefore by a process of elimination:

I need to make two Type 35's and one type 4.
The Frog and Eastern Express are closer to Type 35's meaning the Roden will have to be made as the Type 4. I'm lucky the Roden allowed this, the earlier aircraft is quite distinctly different around the cowl, chin intake, and rudder, mid rear lower fuselage profile, spinner, exhaust stacks, to mention but a few aspects.

As I plan to build each kit more or less as the manufacturer intended OOB, even 70% accuracy is not something Im going for here. Just a fun build of all three to see how much I can get them to look like three heavily used, winter camo LaGG 3's in the same squadron at the same time.

As an aside I will choose one of these for the Vignette group build (I already think I know which one ), and be combining it with a BZ 35 fuel tanker in winter camo, a ground crewman and a nice resin pilot. Much snow will be involved! . This very Soviet Vignette WIP can be found here.

Back to this GB.

Some comparisons. The upper wing is Roden, the lower Frog. The shapes are fairly similar, but detail is missing from the Frog. Also note the different wing root seam locations.




Now the fuselage halves, again, top Roden, bottom, Frog:



At this point I became gravely worried that one of these was wildly inaccurate. The cockpit canopy openings are so vastly different at first glance. More of that later. Neither look decidedly awful, but I'm not going to be able to live with that excuse for an exhaust stack on the Frog! Fortunately I can steal the Type 35 stacks from the Roden kit as that Will be using the earlier stacks. I may also be stealing a rudder.

The Frog kit has a propeller and spinner all moulded into one and it seems neither pointy enough to be a pointy one or rounded enough to be a rounded one!



I may live with it rather than steal a spinner from the Roden and faff with the blades. I'm wondering if an after market La-5 prop and spinner would do the trick. Does anyone know? No after market LaGG 3 prop and/or spinner is advertised anywhere I can find.

The Roden prop and seperate spinner are on the left here, the one piece 'Wonderbra' Frog on the right



Roden wheel on the left (doesn't look too bad), Frog on the right. Erm, good job I've ordered some wheels from SteelWork...




One area in which these two really differ us wheel well shape and therefore undercarriage door shape. I will try to demonstrate this more later. Meanwhile, here, for fun, are the Roden upper wings mated to the Frog lower. It's not a bad fit!



Although it's a particularly bad photograph.

First prize a Goldfish, to the person that can tell which seat is the Frog one:



I'm not telling!

The Frog one does come with a rather useful pilot, although he has had a terrible time of it with flatulence:



I'll be using him, but we'll have to do something about his gastric problems.
Onto control columns/sticks. One of these is very, very wrong:



It's the Froggy one on the left, but I feel it can be modified pretty easily (famous last words).

Tailwheels: again the Frog one isn't as good as the Roden, but with a scratch built scissor link and some fettling I think it will do just fine .



By crikey look what has brought just in time!:



In my next post I'll finish the comparisons by bringing in this Eastern Express kit, then onwards with some cockpits!
Also a little review of my findings on AM for each kit.

Thanks for reading
Happy modelling
Tony

Edited to insert missing photographs, and again (and again) to correct auto-correct incorrect corrections.

[Learstang]

Nice overview, Tony! You could do one of the series '35' as a '34' with the 37-mm cannon, as it was very similar to the '35', with the noticeable exception of the cannon. Massimo's site is a great site for information on the Lavochkins, and as a matter of fact, Massimo did the artwork for my just-released book on the Lavochkins (hint-hint!). Regarding the propellers, the LaGG-3 used the Klimov M-105 engine which had left-handed rotation, whilst the M-82 on the La-5 had right-handed rotation, so you'd have to deal with that if using an aftermarket La-5 set. The spinner is a different shape also. For what it's worth, I thought the Frog kit to be rather '35'-ish, although the starboard machine gun needs to be removed for this series (and also for the '34').

Regards,

Jason

[John Thompson]

In all fairness the Eastern Express/Dako (also 'Apex', 'Alpha', 'Maquette' is of a slightly more recent vintage (1988?)

I'm wondering if an after market La-5 prop and spinner would do the trick. Does anyone know? No after market LaGG 3 prop and/or spinner us advertised anywhere I can find.

What fun - you're really an inspiration!

A small historical note - the Apex/Alpha/probably Maquette kit is an old, crude Soviet-era kit which has nothing in common with the Dakoplast one, except that it claims to be a LaGG-3. This kit was also reboxed by Eastern Express, who had three LaGG-3 kits - the two which had series numbers (35 and 66) on the box were Dakoplast, the other one was Apex.

Re the prop, I'm afraid the La-5 one is no use to you - the prop shaft of the Shvetsov ASh-82 engine in the La-5 rotated in the opposite direction compared to that of the Klimov VK-105 in the LaGG-3. A prop intended for a Yak would work, though. Unless it's the Airfix Yak-9 - that one is backwards too!

Good luck - keep the Red Banner flying, Comrade!

John

PS - Here's a table of LaGG-3 series distinctions which I created many moons ago using the LaGG-3 In Action book as a reference. It may not be 100% as of what we know today, but it's close enough for government work...

Edited June 28, 2016 by John Thompson

[TonyTiger66]

Nice overview, Tony! You could do one of the series '35' as a '34' with the 37-mm cannon, as it was very similar to the '35', with the noticeable exception of the cannon. Massimo's site is a great site for information on the Lavochkins, and as a matter of fact, Massimo did the artwork for my just-released book on the Lavochkins (hint-hint!). Regarding the propellers, the LaGG-3 used the Klimov M-105 engine which had left-handed rotation, whilst the M-82 on the La-5 had right-handed rotation, so you'd have to deal with that if using an aftermarket La-5 set. The spinner is a different shape also. For what it's worth, I thought the Frog kit to be rather '35'-ish, although the starboard machine gun needs to be removed for this series (and also for the '34').

Regards,

Jason

Hello Jason and many thanks! I needed to know that about the propellers. I think its time to address my sheer laziness lack of time and use the spare Roden rounded spinner on the Frog propellor. I've done much micro sawing of e.g. Heller P40E (a nice kit) undercarriage legs and feel this will be a similar exercise in masochism and cut thumbs, but ultimately, will be rewarding .

I agree that the Frog kit seems to be 35'ish'. The rudder will again, have to be stolen from the Roden, I will just not have to look at th chin intakes too much. It's interesting in that, in scale terms, the paucity of surface deal and only very 'hinted at' exhaust plates at the side of the cowling are probably more accurate 'in scale' on the Frog than anything else. I'd be fascinated in the book, hint certainly taken! Please PM or let me know about it; I have quite a weakness for the aircraft - I have even been tempted into purchasing just one 1/48 kit of one, and I like the look of it, although lord knows where I'll display it!

What fun - you're really an inspiration!

A small historical note - the Apex/Alpha/probably Maquette kit is an old, crude Soviet-era kit which has nothing in common with the Dakoplast one, except that it claims to be a LaGG-3. This kit was also reboxed by Eastern Express, who had three LaGG-3 kits - the two which had series numbers (35 and 66) on the box were Dakoplast, the other one was Apex.

Re the prop, I'm afraid the La-5 one is no use to you - the prop shaft of the Shvetsov ASh-82 engine in the La-5 rotated in the opposite direction compared to that of the Klimov VK-105 in the LaGG-3. A prop intended for a Yak would work, though. Unless it's the Airfix Yak-9 - that one is backwards too!

Good luck - keep the Red Banner flying, Comrade!

John

PS - Here's a table of LaGG-3 series distinctions which I created many moons ago using the LaGG-3 In Action book as a reference. It may not be 100% as of what we know today, but it's close enough for government work...

Thank you John thats really encouraging and very kind indeed Thanks so much for the table of 'recipes' as I call them. That really helps, a lot!

I have managed to obtain a Falcon vac-form canopy that is designed for the Frog/Emhar/Red-Star. I'm glad your list confirms for a Type 35 it should be a curved screen. Similarly for the Eastern Express (ex Dako - thanks to your information) Type 35, I have a Rob Taurus canopy. I have no vac canopy for the Roden, but I 'm going to see if another Rob Taurus I purchased will fit. I'm glad I avoided the 'Type 66" canopies, looking at the chart you provided, they'd be very wrong.

The wing root intake issue is fascinating as the Roden has absolutely none at all and a visit to the village of 'Much Sawing' in Kent is necessary. This is followed, as we will see soon, to a visit to 'Midsomer Fettling' in Avon and Somerset and then the 'Nothing in my life fits Anymore' mindfulness rehab clinic in San Francisco.

I was only commenting to my wife a few minutes ago that I have stated on BM "I don't model VVS" yet that its clearly complete rubbish! I do, be it through proxy Spanish Civil War, Polish or Czech aircraft, but now through direct VVS subjects. They really are rather interesting and splendid aren't they?

I feel a La-5 coming on. My last experience was with the old KP and a ridiculous amount of filler was needed to convince the wings they were from the same kit, but once painted, with all that lovely red around the cowling....Hmm, very nice.

Thanks again John

Best regards

Tony

PS, if that 'other' Eastern Express is the 'Apex' kit, it could be vey nice. I had one of them a long time ago, but it's vanished into the annals of time. It allowed a very attractive red prototype to be modelled and looked quite a detailed kit. I will seek one out now - thanks John.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Watching with interest.....Just noticed one of my 'Roden' LaGG-3s is actually the original TOKO boxing (the boxes are very similar), will have to get it out and see if the mouldings were any cleaner.

[TonyTiger66]

Watching with interest.....Just noticed one of my 'Roden' LaGG-3s is actually the original TOKO boxing (the boxes are very similar), will have to get it out and see if the mouldings were any cleaner.

Good to hear you have one Sarge. I should have mentioned the bits of flash on the Roden. They're minimal and come off easily. Roden is such an unusual company, they create things with beautiful detail, great options and good instructions/paint schemes.

Yet, often, things don't fit and decals (especially Heinkel He-111 B, C or E decals) self destruct.

On the flip side, with perseverance, they build into a very nice result.

Also their customer service is excellent.

The LaGG 3 and He-111 early series are both ex-Toko, so perhaps it's not fair to blame Roden. I'd recommend building your Toko LaGG 3 Sarge, they really are quite fun and not as tricky as people may think.

Uploading more pics of the build soon.

Best regards

Tony

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Have to agree about Roden's customer service.....Best in the business.

They also make some great subjects, here's their Braille AFV catalogue if you fancy something a bit different: http://henk.fox3000.com/Roden.htm

[TonyTiger66]

Thanks for that link Sarge, it kept me busy for most of an evening!

As a boy (I'm a girl now ) I used to model both aircraft and AFV's. When I returned to the hobby 14 or so years ago, one of the first kits I bought was the Airfix 1/76 Sherman. I don't know how accurate it is, but I really enjoyed building it. So much so that I then bought and built the Airfix T-34/76.
I remember they fell together much more quickly than aircraft kits.

I've bought two vehicles in the last month and it's good re-opening this part of the hobby. I like the look of the Roden Opel Blitz. Their WWI armoured cars and trucks are nice too, as are the blitz-buses and..submarines and helicopters and....oh dear, I see stash growth is imminent!

Best regards
Tony

Edited for spelling.

[TonyTiger66]

A quick update; apologies for the lack of a full update. Mrs. Tiger is all together not well (suspected pneumonia) so I've been doing household stuff. I've been able to find forum time very late at night, but no modelling/big computer time as Mrs. T needs peace and quiet.

All being well I can introduce my pictures of the Eastern Express kit tomorrow. Cockpit and Wing build shots too.

One question: I've been trawling the net for some bort numbers in white for 'White 64'.

Could anyone recommend a source or does anyone have suitable numbers? I'd be happy to pay and postage etc.

Thanks for reading

Happy modelling

Tony

[John Thompson]

Is this the White 64 you're needing decals for?

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/3gviap/3gviap64.html

Offhand I don't know of any decals for it or with that particular style/size of numerals; I was hopeful that the Authentic Decals LaGG-3 sheet (now out of print) would include it, but it doesn't!

John