Why Meteor in WW-2 haven´t any kill of piloted aircraft ?

[AlCZ]

Meteor were used operationally from June ´44. (616th Squadron). Me-262 coming into service in the same time. (First Me-262 was lost in fatal incident on 18th June ´44) but Galland´s squadron was formed after Christmas 1943. But Luftwaffe pilots have many kills on their jets of both types (Me-262 and He-162) - and British RAF jockeys haven´t any kill of enemy airplane, they kills a flying bombs V-1 only. Why ? It is a summer/autumm ´44 and war isn´t still on end, we have a Market Garden operation, a Battle of Bulge, Across the Rhine etc... Luftwaffe is still operational and used jets against Allies on Reich Defense units. Meteor is used as attack plane against ground targets but never encountered any German aircraft... I still don´t understand For example a Hawker Tempest (last piston fighter of RAF Fighter Command)was intensive used in air combat in last months of WW II.

[PhantomBigStu]

The meteors were held back for various reasons, had the war continued longer with the Luftwaffe still functioning they would have down combat sorties

[tonyot]

The Meteor was held back for UK defence, especially against V-1`s. After moving to the continent during the latter stages of the war the Meteor was not permitted to cross over the front line until the last few days,...... so there was just no opportunity for the jets to meet.

Cheers

Tony

[Dennis_C]

I think the question is not why Meteor and Schwalbe never met, but why Meteors have not killed a single piloted aircraft. That is a really interesting question.

Although not allowed to cross front line, Meteors still had chances of encountering Luftwaffe aircraft over Europe on Allieds' side of the front line.

[Shane]

I think the question is not why Meteor and Schwalbe never met, but why Meteors have not killed a single piloted aircraft. That is a really interesting question.

Although not allowed to cross front line, Meteors still had chances of encountering Luftwaffe aircraft over Europe on Allieds' side of the front line.

What, both of them....

Shane

[Brad]

I think the question is not why Meteor and Schwalbe never met, but why Meteors have not killed a single piloted aircraft. That is a really interesting question.

Although not allowed to cross front line, Meteors still had chances of encountering Luftwaffe aircraft over Europe on Allieds' side of the front line.

It's an interesting question, but the answer is essentially the same; there wasn't many of them and by the time they were clear to fly over enemy lines, attrition and fuel starvation of the Luftwaffe meant there weren't many enemy aircraft in the sky.

[rossm]

You would have to read the 616 Sqdn Operational Record Book to see what sorties they were tasked with. I haven't but I'm going to throw in a guess that at least part of what they were on the Continent for was to show Allied ground troops that we had jets as well as the Luftwaffe (even if not so many).

Ross

[grahamf]

Apparently they didn't even score against V1's either and Tempest pilots took exception to the fact that they did.

[rossm]

Apparently they didn't even score against V1's either and Tempest pilots took exception to the fact that they did.

Osprey's V1 Flying Bomb Aces book suggests they did score V1 kills, starting with two on 4th August 1944,

Ross

Edited May 17, 2016 by rossm

[Duncan B]

It is as Tony says, they were forbidden from flying over enemy held territory for fear that one might be captured (and have the Germans rushing to develop a leap backwards in technology!).

At that stage in the war there was also no need to risk the Meteors as air supremacy had been won by conventional means anyway so they could be flown in what was more of an operational evaluation style rather than full on war ops.

Duncan B

[Fernando]

It is as Tony says, they were forbidden from flying over enemy held territory for fear that one might be captured (and have the Germans rushing to develop a leap backwards in technology!).

At that stage in the war there was also no need to risk the Meteors as air supremacy had been won by conventional means anyway so they could be flown in what was more of an operational evaluation style rather than full on war ops.

Duncan B

Hi, Duncan,

How glad would good Willy have been to have a couple of Welland engines at his disposal!

Fernando

[rickshaw]

Luftwaffe pilots have many kills on their jets of both types (Me-262 and He-162)

I wasn't aware that the He162 had reached combat operational status. What aircraft did it shoot down?

[PhantomBigStu]

Only one he162 kill is known, and that anecdotally, an RAF pilot shot down (in what I don't know) described his attacker in a way that could only be a 162

Edited May 17, 2016 by PhantomBigStu

[gingerbob]

I believe it was a Typhoon that the He got. Meteors did get some V1 kills, but surprisingly few considering its association with that "campaign". A Meteor also allegedly forced down a Storch "just in time", but whether you can count that as a kill is another question- I don't believe that it was ever given official status as one.

bob

[Chris Thomas]

First let us get the He 162 out of the way. Yes it was operational in a limited way; JG 1 at Leck was equipped but only made one claim, for a Typhoon, but that information comes from a pilot's log (no official claim data existed or survived from the last weeks of the war) in which he described the encounter as "Typhoon fired on with effect". No corresponding Typhoon (or Tempest) loss has been positively identified.

The pilot who apparently described an encounter with a He 162 (see PantomBigStu above) was not shot down but claimed an unidentified enemy aircraft shot shot down and his description strongly suggests it was indeed a He 162. Not all the descriptions from RAF/German sources match but the times and rough location do.

The Meteor did not enter squadron service (with 616 Sqn) until late July 1944 and conversion from Spits was not complete until the end of August. Limited ops were flown against V-1 and 12 plus one shared were claimed. By early September the land-launched V-1 threat was over and 616 flew training sorties for the rest of the year. The Meteor Mk.I was not ready for combat, being somewhat under-powered with Welland engines which gave it a top speed of 410 mph at 30,000, nor was it available in sufficient numbers.

In December 1944 616 received their first Mk IIIs but these still had Welland engines so were not significantly better than the Mk Is. Four were (famously) painted white and flew to Brussels on 4 February 1945. Despite what you may read elsewhere, there was no intention to use these aircraft for operational sorties. They were there to familiarise Allied forces (and particularly anti-aircraft units) with the type. They were painted white not for camouflage but for identification purposes.

Back in the UK the rest of 616 received Derwent-engined Mk IIIs which were capable of 493 mph at 30,000 ft and a very useful 453 at sea level. Still somewhat short of the Me 262's figures. They began arriving in mid-February but were held back in the UK (Andrewsfield) until the threat from air-launched V-1s receded; they flew out to join 135 Wing at the end of March 1945. This unit was based on the northern Allied flank and had three Tempest squadrons which flew 'armed recces' into Germany, targeting mostly trains and motor transport. They did see some air combat but by no means on every sortie. Luftwaffe aircraft were indeed scarce over Allied territory; they had their work cut out defending their own bases and attacking day bombers.

CT

Edited May 17, 2016 by Chris Thomas

[gingerbob]

I was hoping you'd drop by, Chris!

[noelh]

It's a surprising fact that no RAF jet ever had a confirmed air to air kill in combat. It's also remarkable that the last time an RAF pilot in an RAF aircraft had a confirmed kill in combat was in a Spitfire against another Spitfire. An Egyptian Spitfire in 1948.

Amazing.

[Duncan B]

It's a surprising fact that no RAF jet ever had a confirmed air to air kill in combat. It's also remarkable that the last time an RAF pilot in an RAF aircraft had a confirmed kill in combat was in a Spitfire against another Spitfire. An Egyptian Spitfire in 1948.

Amazing.

Dunno 'bout that, there was a certain Phantom Pilot who had a confirmed Jaguar kill that I could name and shame.

Duncan B

(oh sorry missed the 'in combat' bit)

[Denford]

Years, and I mean years ago, there was an article I think in RAF Flying review on Meteor operations at the very end of WWll.

As I recall:

- Meteors shot up a convoy of German soldiers waving at what they thought was a show of Me262's by the Luftwaffe.

- Meteors encountered an RAF/Luftwaffe engagement, but did not intervene less they be mis-identified.

[Niles]

Only one he162 kill is known, and that anecdotally, an RAF pilot shot down (in what I don't know) described his attacker in a way that could only be a 162

This story is totally anecdotal, but it is interesting. Back in the 1980s there was a man I worked with who told me a story told to him by an uncle who had flown P-47s in Europe during the Second World War. According to the uncle's story he was flying alone in a P-47 sometime in the last weeks before the end of the war when he suddenly found himself with what he described as "a small German jet" flying on his wingtip. The German pilot motioned to him to bail out. The uncle said he considered the situation and figured that he was in a no-win situation with that airplane on his wing and since there was no shortage of planes and he was over Allied controlled territory he chose discretion over valor and jumped. "Small German jet" suggests to me something other than an Me-262. If the story actually happened as told, I've wondered whether it might have been a He-162.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Niles

[Miggers]

I'd not like to have a go at a Jug in an He162 unless I was absolutely one million per cent sure I'd get a kill.

A good squirt from the Jug's eight "fifties" would've given the 162 a damn good perforating..................

Hubert Lange, a Me 262 pilot, said: "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest - extremely fast at low altitudes, highly manoeuvrable and heavily armed"

Edited May 17, 2016 by Miggers

[Duncan B]

If the P47 had pulled a hard turn and the He162 had tried to follow it would probably have folded it's wings anyway.

Duncan B

[Jonny]

It's a surprising fact that no RAF jet ever had a confirmed air to air kill in combat. It's also remarkable that the last time an RAF pilot in an RAF aircraft had a confirmed kill in combat was in a Spitfire against another Spitfire. An Egyptian Spitfire in 1948.

Amazing.

And inaccurate too.

A number of RAF and RN pilots scored kills over Argentine pilots over the Falklands 1982. Others scored kills in Korea 195-something. Probably others too.

[AlCZ]

Hmmm, British jet engines was a far better as German jet engines. Capturing of Meteor can be really bad for Allies. And when Meteors flying in allied side of frontline only, they never engaged any German aircraft (when German aircraft don´t flying of frontline. Simple ! Thank you !

To Spitfire vs. Spitfire. I read a many years ago a story when IAF Spitfire shot down a RAF photor-recoon Spitfire over Palestina. This story was used as boxart on kit from Czech production, but i never know what type of PR Spit IAF Claimed, but i memory a British Pilot was KIA. For me it is a sad story - Israel and United Kingdom never been a enemies. The Israeli Spit was probably delivered from Czechoslavakia. (I think a boxart was on old MpM Spitfire, -but wich version ? I don´t remember !)

RAF jet jockey shot down enemy aircraft in Cold War period !

In Korean War they are a few kills on Meteor F.8 (Yup, this is a Australia, but they are too a fighters of Her Majesty.) Most famed is kill on Sea Fury (Mig-15). Yes this is a luck shoot -but... Kill is confirmed. (And piston engine powered fighter(Tempest on steroids) shot down a jet of second generation ! )

Sea Harriers against Argentinians jets....

In Operation Desert Storm have RAF kill probably to (notorious famed a desert pink Tonka with big shark mouth - "MiG Eater" Tornado Gr.1 - not ?)

And over former Yugoslavia territory haven´t British pilots any kill ?

Edited May 17, 2016 by AlCZ

[Ronan71]

And inaccurate too.

A number of RAF and RN pilots scored kills over Argentine pilots over the Falklands 1982. Others scored kills in Korea 195-something. Probably others too.

I think the story is that all British air to air kills after the engagement with the Egyptian Spitfires were made with Royal Navy aircraft, although in some cases with RAF pilots.