de Havilland Hornet Moth in RAF service - update

[Ed Russell]

The de Havilland DH.87 Hornet Moth was designed as a potential replacement for the highly successful Tiger Moth. Although its side-by-side two-seat cabin made it closer in configuration to many aircraft that trainee pilots would go on to fly in service there was no interest from the Air Ministry. A limited number of aircraft were into produced for private buyers.

Ironically some did find their way into the RAF by civilian impressment and served with 529 Sqn. Having a very minor ‘unusual aircraft of radar calibration squadrons” theme going

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234977606-hurricane-mki-p2992-of-527-radar-calibration-sqn/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235001542-avro-rota-529-radar-calibration-sqn-5-rmu-1448-rc-flt/

this one is of interest. For sure there is no kit but it looks not beyond the bounds of possibility to cobble one up. I know a good person to ask.....

There is a lot of photos on the net of a very well restored one in military colours.

However it is somewhat of an enigma as, although the scheme looks quite plausible for a second line squadron, the codes are more appropriate for a bomber squadron like 156 or 502. YG is also listed for 646 but never used.

A few questions........

Is the restored example a flight of fancy or does it represent something real?

Does anyone have a picture of a Hornet Moth in RAF service?

[Graham Boak]

529 Sq was allocated KX, if you didn't know that already (or even if you did). I suggest this "warbird" carried the owner's initials?

[John Aero]

Quite a number of Hornet Moths were impressed with quite a number in the W938- serial catagory and mostly used as Hacks by a variety of RAF squadrons,RN and the ATA. I'll dig and see what this a/c civil ID was. If you are desperate for a 1/72 Hornet then I have drawings and a vac fuselage mould but you would have to cobble up your own transparencies and flight surfaces.

John

[Graham Boak]

W9385 3 CPF/St Athan. Ex- G-ADND. (Sorry: I didn't realise earlier I had the Air Britain book behind me.)

No 3 Coastal Patrol Flight formed 1.12.39 no.15 Group at Hooton Park to patrol between Anglesey and Liverpool, affiliated to 502 Sq. From 4.12.39 worked together with No.4 CPF. Disbanded 27.5.40.

[wyverns4]

Ones I know of are;

V 4731 - VT-AIT, (impressed India)

W 5746 - G-ADKA, (W 5746 -5782 originally impressed for Coastal Command patrols)

W 5747 - G-ADKH

W 5748 - G-ADKJ

W 5749 - G-ADKM

W 5750 - G-ADKR

W 5751 - G AEKS

W 5752 - G-ADKW

W 5753 - G-ADMM

W 5754 - G-?

W 5755 - G-?

W 5756 - G-?

W 5757 - G-?

W 5758 - G-?

W 5759 - G-?

W 5760 - G-?

W 5761 - G-?

W 5762 - G-?

W 5763 - G-?

W 5764 - G-?

W 5765 - G-?

W 5766 - G-?

W 5767 - G-?

W 5768 - G-?

W 5769 - G-?

W 5769 - G-?

W 5770 - G-ADMN

W 5771 - G-ADMS, later 2821M

W 5772 - G-ADNB

W 5773 - G-ADNC

W 5774 - G-AEPV

W 5775 - G-AESE

W 5776 - G-AETC

W 5777 - G-AEWY

W 5778 - G-AEZT

W 5779 - G-AFDT

W 5780 - G-AFDY

W 5781 - G-AFEE

W 5782 - G-AFMP

W 5784 - G-AFRE

W 5830 - G-ADKE

W 6421 - G-ADKB

W 6422 - G-ADKN

W 9372 - G-ADKV, (for RN)

W 9379 - G-AFDU

W 9380 - G-AFDW

W 9381 - G-AEZH

W 9382 - G-AFDF

W 9383 - G-AEKY

W 9384 - G-AEZY

W 9385 - G-ADND

W 9386 - G-ADKU

W 9387 - G-ADIR

W 9388 - G-ADLY

W 9389 - G-ADMJ

W 9390 - G-AFDG

W 9391 - G-ADIS

X 9310 - G-ADMR

X 9319 - G-AEET

X 9321 - G-ADKD

X 9322 - G-ADKP

X 9323 - G-ADML

X 9324 - G-AFBH

X 9325 - G-ADNE

X 9326 - G-ADOT

X 9380 - G-ACLM

X 9381 - G-ACMN

X 9382 - G-ACPK, later 2778M

X 9383 - G-ADCO

X 9384 - G-ACSH

X 9385 - G-ADWY, later 2991M

X 9443 - G-ADJX

X 9444 - G-ADJZ

X 9445 - G-ADKC

X 9446 - G-AFEC

X 9447 - G-AFEF

X 9458 - G-ADKS

AV 951 - G-ADKI

AV 952 - G-ADSK

AV 696 - G-ADMO

AW 114 - G-AEIY

AW 118 - G-AELO, (impressed for RN but taken over by RAF)

BK 830 - G-AEZG

BK 837 - G-ADMP

HM 498 - OY-DOK, (Danish escapee)

LR 227 - VT-AKE, (ex G-AEVU, impressed in India)

LV 763 - VT-AIU, (impressed in far East)

Hope this is of some use and and further info greatly received!

Christian, a DH nut in a dark place

[Graham Boak]

Here, for your gaps

W5754 G-ADKW

W5755 G-ADMM

W5756 start of black-out block running to W5769

W5770 G-ADMN

And different to your list

W5746 G-ADKE

W5747 not stated

W5748 G-ADKJ

W5749 G-ADKK

W5750 G-ADKL

W5751 G-ADKM

W5752 G-ADKR

W5753 G-ADKS

As there are some differences, I haven't looked beyond the Ws. Data from Air Britain RAF Aircraft W1000-Z9999 pub. 1998.

[Seahawk]

According to Air Britain, W5754 was ex-G-ADMM and W5755 ex-G-ADMN. Serials W5756-69 were either a blackout block or not taken up.

Edit: curses, beaten to the draw by Graham, who was typically more thorough.

Believe I saw a British Hornet Moth on a table at the Gloucester show on Sunday: think it was an FAA one.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Seahawk

[wyverns4]

Cheers guys!

I have been trying to recreate this, amongst other, files post the great laptop theft of 2014...

Yes they were saved, but even the portable hard drives that were kept in a different location were taken... africa...

Christian, exiled to the dark continent

[Graham Boak]

Seahawk: we are both quoting Air Britain but different links. I've gone back and checked my reference: which is your source?

[Seahawk]

1998 ed of serials W-Z but I skipped a line in reading across so both idents are incorrect. Will amend when next on laptop.

Type in haste; repent at leisure!

Edit: error in post 7 now corrected.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Seahawk

[Graham Boak]

That's a relief: I was wondering if you had a copy of Archive dealing with the Hornet Moth, wherein it said that the serials book had got it all wrong!

[Ed Russell]

I have the aircraft in the picture listed as

c/n 8097 “W9385” “YG-L”

1936 The aircraft was registered as G-ADND

19? The aircraft was acquired by P.Q. Reiss.

1940 Feb The aircraft was acquired by the UK Air Registration Board.

1946 Jun Back on civil register

19? The aircraft was acquired by the Shuttleworth Collection.

Can't trace any later owner as YGL or similar and it's not on cirrent Shuttleworth listing.

Edited adding info below - thanks John

Thanks very much for the information. Now all we need are some pictures.

[Graham Boak]

Planefinder.net has it based at Hullavington. There are a lot of post-war pictures via Air Britain on abpic.co.uk Current owner is David Weston, bought from Shuttleworth in 1996. The photo shows her current livery - in Shuttleworth hands there was no yellow on the fuselage sides.

Just type G-ADND into Google and various photo sites will crop up. Nothing I've found about her prewar or wartime schemes, however.

[Dave Fleming]

I have seen a pic of a camo Hornet Moth, I think with codes, but I can't find the book. Will have a look tomorrow

Edited May 12, 2016 by Dave Fleming

[Seahawk]

Well, there's a photo of W5830, ex G-ADKE, at the bottom of p.32 of Gordon Swanborough's British Aircraft At War 1939-45, which may show it in camouflage (overall dark tone, apparent camouflage demarcation on nose). No codes though. Caption says, "impressed in October 1939 initially for Station Flight at RAF Northolt." Also a photo of RCAF Hornet Moth floatplane 5600, in camouflage: no codes. Caption says it was reportedly CF-BFK before impressment.

Only 3 mentions (no photos) in the Putnam De Havilland volume and not significant enough to figure in either of the services Putnams (RAF aircraft, Naval aircraft).

[Dave Fleming]

That might be the one I'm thinking on

[John Aero]

G-ADND was impressed Feb/40 as W9385 and restored to the Civil register in June/46 probably by P.Q.Reiss.

John

[71chally]

W9385 saw service at St Athan with the Wireless School and Pilotless Aircraft Unit.

It's owned by a great gent, David Weston, who has reunited the Hornet Moth with the son of Grp Cpt Michael Charles Adderley OBE AFC, one of its original pilots.

I covered the story (inc log book extracts) with pictures here, http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?110845-DH-Hornet-Moth-retraces-its-past-at-St-Athan

Some good pics of it as G-ADND on that thread as well.

I have a feeling that it may have served at St Eval as well, but need to confirm that.

[Ed Russell]

It's owned by a great gent, David Weston .......

I covered the story with pictures here....

I saw that thread which does indeed have nice pictures and some info.

Did David Weston purchase it in that scheme? Do you have any further info about the colours and markings?

[Junchan]

Here's a full story on G-ADND in this blog.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/4/7/1196022/-A-Hornet-Moth-goes-to-war-the-life-and-times-of-a-DH87B

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[Ed Russell]

full story on G-ADND in this blog.

Yes I had seen that one too. Not exactly a full story as it has no details of the colours and markings beyond saying it is "the correct scheme for all trainers and second-line aircraft at this time". True enough as I said in the OP but I haven't seen any evidence it is authentic for W9385 or any other Hornet Moth.

[71chally]

I believe David acquired the Moth in those markings.

I really don't know about the codes but had it in my mind that they were Coastal Command related.

Will try and contact his to find out more

[Dave Fleming]

The markings were already on when with the previous owner - I have a thought that perhaps there was an article in Aeroplane about them when it was first painted in that scheme

[71chally]

I have been in contact with David Weston, and he has kindly provided the following information regarding G-ADND / W9385 history.

The 'YG' code letters reflect its time with 502 Sqn Coastal Command during early 1940, the unit was split into six Coastal Patrol Flights and the '3' on the tail indicated that it flew with 3 Flight at Hooton Park.

Hornet Moths and Tiger Moths were both employed on 'Scarecrow' coastal patrols to try and locate surfaced enemy submarines. In the case of the Tigers there was an idea to use light bombs for attack, but the the idea served better as a visual deterrence, or to 'scare ' the subs into thinking that an attack could follow.

Unfortunately period photographs of these aircraft are scarce.

G-ADND / W9385 was repainted in its RAF scheme while with Shuttleworth in 1994, originally with silver undersides, the yellow undersides were applied a year later.

David questions which underside colour is correct on his Moth, my hunch is the yellow, any thoughts about that here?

[Graham Boak]

My reading of the histories is that two of the Coastal Flights (3 and 4) operated from Hooton Park (No. 4 was actually formed at Aldergrove), and affiliated to 502 Sqn, rather than being formed by a dissolution of 502 Sq, which continued with its Ansons until later receiving Whitleys. Two other Coastal Patrol Flights were formed in Scotland, and the other two in the West Country, and these seem to have had no relationship at all to 502 Sqn. As the squadron continued to operate, it cannot have been split into six separate flights in different parts of the country.

Coastal etc Squadrons of the RAF does mention Tiger Moths with 502 Sqn at this time, but doesn't include any examples as being on squadron strength, and has no mention of Hornet Moths. For these reasons I would expect that YG codes would not be carried by the Coastal Patrol Flights, not least because there wouldn't seem to be enough letters in the alphabet to go around. Without photographs, any comment has to be highly qualified.

There is the question of where the pilots and other personnel were found for these Flights. As No.3 was formed at Hooton Park, there is a possibility that one or more 502 Sqn personnel played a part in its formation, in which case, just maybe, aircraft might have been painted in 502 Sqn codes through a misunderstanding or as an expression of squadron joi de vivre..

The colour of the undersides is a interesting thought. Operational aircraft would indeed have Aluminium undersides, though in that case I'd expect to see the camouflage taken lower down. The higher demarcation is associated with early war training and support aircraft and Yellow undersides I'd expect the Hornet Moths to have been painted in the latter scheme, but could have been repainted on allocation to Coastal Command. Could. Perhaps. Maybe.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Graham Boak