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Building/Painting/Masking Tutorial: Heller Citroen 15 CV


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All sounds good to me.

It does highlight the simplicity of using rattle cans though.

I literally paint each piece I need, as I go.

I use Halfords primers - grey, white and red.

All my other colours are Halfords too.

Yes, rattle cans aren't cheap, but when you consider the amount of paint in a can - 300ml for £6.50 - against 14ml in a tinlet for £2, they actually are VERY cheap.

The 500ml cans are even better value at £7.95.

All of my primers, clear coats, matt/satin/gloss black, ally, silver, gunmetal, chromes - are 500ml cans.

The equivalent paint in tinlets would be over £50!

Some people say (no - I'm not talking about the Stig) that rattle cans put on too much paint.

No they don't, if you spray lightly from about 10".

OK, you waste paint with overspray but actually, rattle cans last an age when you're just painting little car parts.

It takes a bit of practice, like anything else but I'm a rattle can convert.

And a bonus?

No waiting an age for paint to dry.

Car paints are dry in minutes with the aid of an old hairdryer.

I spend my time building.

Not waiting for paints to dry or faffing about cleaning equipment.

Just my two-pennorth.

Roy.

How do you deal with the smell of these things?

I've got a spray booth, but there is still a lingering smell. Apart from struggling with the little Avant, I might struggle with my wife on this.

Do you guys have a special shed or something???? :work:

Edited by David_64
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I do all my spraying at one end of the garage where I have a long bench, spray booth (giant card box cut open at the front and top) and a few bench tools - belt sander, grinder, pillar drill etc.

I wear a mask and on days like today, door and windows wide open.

No smell in the house.

I admit, I'm looking at getting a 12 ft x 8 ft shed and converting into a 'workshop' for all the cruddy stuff.

The fact it 'might' just coincidentally end up with my digital Scalextric permanently set up in there has NOTHING to do with it... :evil_laugh:

Regarding quantity in the can - it says 'Paint contents 300ml'

Even if the contents was actually HALF, it would still be mega-bucks cheaper than Humbrol/Tamiya/whoever...

Roy.

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I don't even use a spray booth. I use newspaper on the kitchen floor, with blu-tak to stick the parts straight to the paper. If the weather's nice I'll open the back door but mostly I have no ventilation. After spraying I close the kitchen door and wait about 30 mins. By then the paint is dry (if it's Halfords) and the smell is gone.

I brought some cheap spray cans from Aldi once and they took over 24hrs to dry and stunk to high heaven for at least half that time. They were labeled as decorators paint for indoor or outdoor and are crap for modelling. So I always stick to automotive paint now, 99% Halfords stock.

Ashley

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Citadel (Games Workshop) -- use straight from the pot, and clean and thin with water, many colours across a spectrum mainly used for gaming.

Vallejo -- also used straight from the bottle and clean and thin with water, need mucho shaking because the pigments are very fine, lots of matched military colours, including Napoleonics

AK Interactive Extreme Metal -- excellent metal effect paint in multiple shades, brush paint very well and can be airbrushed as is.

Lifecolour and Tamiya acrylics in pots are nice, but a bit more temperamental. They need to dry thoroughly (overnight, to be safe) before applying a second coat, otherwise the brush will lift the first coat.

Tamiya clear acrylics are indispensable for brake lights, indicators etc.

bestest,

M.

Edited by cmatthewbacon
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Hi David

The best advice I had, and still go back to, is to buy some white plastic desert spoons to practice on (ebay get them by the 100). The material is not too different from what we work with, and it has 2 perfect shapes to see how paint will flow from which ever method you want to use. I use them to see how a aggressive the paint might be if it is in an aerosol, or what primer/undercoat colour combination I should use to get the right colour at the end. If you cock up, no big deal as they only cost pennies.

They are also perfect for understanding how to mask. Getting a straight line on the back or inside of the spoon, without a run is similar to most masking tasks that you will do, and again, it is no pressure.

I think also from the thread, you can take on board that no single way is correct, it is what ever you feel gives you the best results. I will soon be practising with a bow pen to do some line painting as it has been a long time since I last used one.

Good luck.

Tony

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I think there are a few basics here that are super important. The surface prep has been talked about but bears repeating; before each coat of paint the surface should be dust free. I keep a can of canned air that, is used on keyboards, to give a quick shot just before I paint anything. Right after, I spray larger pieces, I cover the part right away. Dust, before and after painting is your enemy! If you can keep any dust from getting on the paint you can eliminate a lot of sanding and repaint. Another thing is, the choice of paint and knowing what the reaction between paint types can do. General rule is, acrylics can be sprayed over lacquer or enamel. Enamels can be sprayed over lacquer and some acrylics. Lacquer cannot be sprayed over anything but lacquer. This is important to pay attention to like, for instance shooting an enamel primer then shooting a lacquer over it can wreak havoc. I used to buy large cans of primer at Home Depot cheap, and then shoot a color coat that is a lacquer and, have it start cracking. Some lacquers are hotter than others so, best practice is to use the same brand of paint all the way through from primer to clear coat and even airbrush thinner or cleaner. I personally use mostly lacquer because, like Codger's pointed out, it dries quickly but, it smells bad and is bad for you. I try and spray out of the house if at all possible. I use spray cans for all basic colors on smaller parts like flat black, silver, semi gloss black, flat white etc. If I need special metal colors I usually screw on an air blast cap and shoot Alclad straight out of the bottle in order to minimize waste. One thing here that, goes to supporting Roy and the spray cans is that, you also lose/waste a lot of paint in airbrushes too. By the time you pour it into the cup or mix in a bottle and clean it up you've wasted more paint than you've put on the parts. So, sometimes it is faster and less wasteful to just do a quick spray from a can. I'm no expert but, I've been building models for about 60 years and I've tried a lot of things. I have three airbrushes, two of which are the Iwata and Harder-Steenbeck dual action and my old single action Badger. I don't confine myself to any one thing but, use what paint or method that is best for the job. As far as the best size of model for you to learn on or perfect your skills, you should do the scale that you build the most because each size has their own different idiosyncrasies. It's best to perfect your skills on what you build rather than something that you don't. Small 1/24 scale lends itself to airbrushing bodies and the big 1/8 scale require cans or bigger capacity sprayers. The body and fenders on my Mercedes would have taken forever to paint with an airbrush and would have had an uneven coverage; as it was I probably used close to ten cans of Testors paint and all summer of sanding and painting until I got the finish I was going for. I've gone on long enough here.

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I use Halfords car paints for everything and then Halfords clear lacquer if I want a modern shine.

Decals are never a problem but make sure they are dry by at least a week.

Other than that, I use 'Klear' over the decals with a few mm outside the edges.

Roy.

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I use Halfords clear gloss spray too and have only had a problem with decals when applying a wet coat straight over them. Make sure they are thoroughly dry and apply a mist coat first. Then when that's dry a wet coat followed by any wet sanding or polishing needed and more coats if needed etc.

Ashley

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A great many thanks to all who responded. This thread is already becoming a rich resource for the novice.

One thing that strikes me is the amazingly large variety of options. Sort of spins your mind.

Having said this, I am determined to press on with the little Citroen (despite huge system stability problems at the office which stress me out like nothing else!).

The next difficult step is painting the dash:

dash_zpsipfjrifi.jpg

I put a Euro next to it, so you can see how tiny it is.

As you can see, it's already primed (Tamiya light grey primer).

Here's what needs to happen: The background needs to be gloss black, the little square above the steering column needs to be ivory and the knobs silver. The trickiest part will be the lines above and under the Citroen sign. These need to alternate black and silver.

My plan is the following:

1. Cut a small piece of masking tape that fits perfectly in the dash square.

2. Airbrush the whole piece in gloss black (zero-paints).

3. Remove the small masking tape out of the square.

4. Mask everything but the square.

5. Airbrush the square ivory (zero-paints).

6. Brush paint the little knobs with a super thin pencil brush using Tamiya acrylics (I am assuming this will hold on the zero-paint).

7. Mask the lines with fine masking tape and paint the required lines silver with a super thin pencil brush using Tamiya acrylics (I am assuming this will hold on the zero-paint).

One has to be mad to spend so much effort on such a little piece, but there you go.

If anyone thinks this plan (or part thereof) is doomed to fail, please tell me quickly.

I'll post pictures as I progress. I am sure you all will have a good laugh at the mess I am going to make of this!

Cheers,

David

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David, a commendable thread and while I appreciate Codgers input, there is a vast difference between painting 1:1 than airbrushing. Having worked in the Dope (Spray) Shop in the FAA and having spayed the full size item and then afterwards airbrushing models. They are worlds apart.

Firstly it is difficult to teach someone to spraypaint. Yes you can show them the technique and how to mix paint but it's another matter in being able to spray accurately. Lots of variables to learn. Fourty plus years on, I'm still learning...

A spray gun is a workman like tool, whereas an airbrush is an illustration instrument. Designed for illustrating using inks.

Paint type be it enamel or solvent based, the amount of paint to thinners ratio all add to the complication as do the humidity level and ambiant temperatures.

As for your build and using the 24th Citroen I think it's a wise choice. The size is good and looking at the finish you have on it you should be jusifyably pround. Black is not easy!

For 24th I'm a big exponant of the rattle/aerosol can. Good quality paint and at the right consistancy (and the can warmed to build pressure) for the modeller. The Halfords primer makes a very good base with can the buffed to remove any in perfections. The top coats great and what a range of colours. So for the modeller who doesn't own an airbrush they can still paint 24th scale cars.

Your engine, well as I think you have realised the paint was too thick. 40/60 paint to thinners is a good ration to my mind, sometimes more thinners depending on the paint manufacturer.

The you have to consider filtering. Enamels such as Humbrol will need filtering, remember we're using an instrument not a spary gun.

Colin

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I wish I could use rattle can primer myself, that stuff is a PITA though an airbrush, even with a larger 0.4 nozzle.

I unfortunately have no outside space so I'm relegated to the spray booth up in my loft studio. I primed my first model this way with the kitchen window open and it was a breeze but it didn't half smell. But... we had a new ( and very expensive ) kitchen installed last year though so that option is way off the table. Ms Borez would go mad.

If I had the option though I'd rattle can prime, paint and clear coat car bodies without hesitation.

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David, a commendable thread and while I appreciate Codgers input, there is a vast difference between painting 1:1 than airbrushing. Having worked in the Dope (Spray) Shop in the FAA and having spayed the full size item and then afterwards airbrushing models. They are worlds apart.

For 24th I'm a big exponant of the rattle/aerosol can. Good quality paint and at the right consistancy (and the can warmed to build pressure) for the modeller. The Halfords primer makes a very good base with can the buffed to remove any in perfections. The top coats great and what a range of colours. So for the modeller who doesn't own an airbrush they can still paint 24th scale cars.

Colin

To be clear Colin, at no time did I recommend that David use 1:1 practice or spray equipment. My 1/8 project is being painted with spray cans and only detail parts are airbrushed or brush painted.

And for the most part we agree on recommendations.

I still contend however that starting on very small parts like that dash and combining three tasks ( spraying, masking, brushing) will take you a very long time to get comfortable. I suggest learning to spray larger subjects from cans to get stroke and coverage then masking and finally airbrushing for mix, stroke and coverage. Brush painting is easiest of all when paint is properly thinned and correct brushes are chosen.

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Borez, I can understand you might have problems with rattle can paint through an airbrush. If you haven't, you need to decant it into a smallish jar and then let the volutiles (gasses) flash off only then put it into the airbrush. It's the best kind of paint for airbrushing good quality and is ready filtered.

I recently built a sprayboth (after many years of using just a cardboard box and nothing else) using a plastic storage box, some LED lights for illumination and a computer fan. I have plenty of room in my garage/studio so fumes are not a problem but if you attach a tumble dryer hose to the outlet and route this into a 25l plastic paint drum wihn a a couple of litre of water and a small vent in the lid it should be good enough for what you need. The water will capture and paint residue and you can decant that and dispose of it safely.

Colin

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Borez, I can understand you might have problems with rattle can paint through an airbrush. If you haven't, you need to decant it into a smallish jar and then let the volutiles (gasses) flash off only then put it into the airbrush. It's the best kind of paint for airbrushing good quality and is ready filtered.

I recently built a sprayboth (after many years of using just a cardboard box and nothing else) using a plastic storage box, some LED lights for illumination and a computer fan. I have plenty of room in my garage/studio so fumes are not a problem but if you attach a tumble dryer hose to the outlet and route this into a 25l plastic paint drum wihn a a couple of litre of water and a small vent in the lid it should be good enough for what you need. The water will capture and paint residue and you can decant that and dispose of it safely.

Colin

I've never used ratllecan paint though an airbrush, my problems are with primer itself though an airbrush, it's just horrible stuff to clean up and it's far quicker to prime from the can. I also have a small spraybooth that vents outside, I tried using rattlecans with it but the smell was awful.

I also really don't have the space to start decanting stuff up in my loft studio, it's not something I'd even try. ;)

Edited by Borez
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My vote for painting the dash would be to brush paint the whole thing. That's what I do 90% of the time with my models. As long as the paint is thinned properly you will get a uniform flat surface with no brush marks.

But if you follow your method I can not see why it wouldn't work out fine. But remember that all zero paints to my knowledge require a clear coat to achieve a gloss look. Something to bear in mine when working on items such as dashboards.

Ashley

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My vote for painting the dash would be to brush paint the whole thing. That's what I do 90% of the time with my models. As long as the paint is thinned properly you will get a uniform flat surface with no brush marks.

But if you follow your method I can not see why it wouldn't work out fine. But remember that all zero paints to my knowledge require a clear coat to achieve a gloss look. Something to bear in mine when working on items such as dashboards.

Ashley

After only very little experience with the Avant, I now realize the importance of good mix of paints for the various parts.

My mistake was buying zero-paints for everything. I think I should just have bought that for the body.

I am now airbrushing the dash, together with other parts that need to be in gloss black, with zero-paint gloss black. I don't intend to clear coat these little pieces. Hopefully by putting it on thick enough, I will look glossy enough. Hey, I'm learning after all (and quickly).

Biggest headache are the fumes. The lady of the house is starting to grumble.

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I would just mask the square like you said and spray the dash and then brush paint the rest instead of masking off the whole dash. If you want to spray the insert just spray it first and when it's dry, mask it off and spray the whole dash, much simpler.

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Something went horribly wrong.

After airbrushing the little pieces with gloss black zero-paints, I got the following result:

hair_zpsmrief1ew.jpg

It's the strangest thing. It looks hairy, like moldy!!!! Just before I painted some pieces in green in exactly the same place (so equal amount of dust), and the result was alright.

I have two questions:

1. Does anyone know what the cause of this might be?

2. I guess I have to strip everything with IPA. That's going to be fun with these little pieces….

:hanging:

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Could be if you thinned the paint with thinner, it's too much thinner or too much air pressure. I'm only seeing the picture on my phone but, it sounds like the paint is drying before or right after its hitting the surface

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A great many thanks to all who responded. This thread is already becoming a rich resource for the novice.

One thing that strikes me is the amazingly large variety of options. Sort of spins your mind.

Having said this, I am determined to press on with the little Citroen (despite huge system stability problems at the office which stress me out like nothing else!).

The next difficult step is painting the dash:

dash_zpsipfjrifi.jpg

I put a Euro next to it, so you can see how tiny it is.

As you can see, it's already primed (Tamiya light grey primer).

Here's what needs to happen: The background needs to be gloss black, the little square above the steering column needs to be ivory and the knobs silver. The trickiest part will be the lines above and under the Citroen sign. These need to alternate black and silver.

My plan is the following:

1. Cut a small piece of masking tape that fits perfectly in the dash square.

2. Airbrush the whole piece in gloss black (zero-paints).

3. Remove the small masking tape out of the square.

4. Mask everything but the square.

5. Airbrush the square ivory (zero-paints).

6. Brush paint the little knobs with a super thin pencil brush using Tamiya acrylics (I am assuming this will hold on the zero-paint).

7. Mask the lines with fine masking tape and paint the required lines silver with a super thin pencil brush using Tamiya acrylics (I am assuming this will hold on the zero-paint).

One has to be mad to spend so much effort on such a little piece, but there you go.

If anyone thinks this plan (or part thereof) is doomed to fail, please tell me quickly.

I'll post pictures as I progress. I am sure you all will have a good laugh at the mess I am going to make of this!

Cheers,

David

David, I think your plan is good, however I think hand painting the fine lines using strips of masking tape is doomed! You will almost certainly get paint creeping under the tape with a brush. Airbrushing may get better results. I would suggest instead cutting very fine strips from chrome Bare Metal Foil (bmf). This may be another new product for you, so look it up for tutorials. Quite handy for detail work and repairing chromed parts! :)

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Could be if you thinned the paint with thinner, it's too much thinner or too much air pressure. I'm only seeing the picture on my phone but, it sounds like the paint is drying before or right after its hitting the surface

I think you're right that something like this must be the cause. However, I didn't thin the paint and used the same air pressure as for other color (green) from the same brand (zero-paints).

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