Fairey Battle prototype P.4/34 K7555 information - colour/plans?

[TonyTiger66]

Hello,
I wonder if anyone could give me information on what seems to be the second Fairey Battle or P4/34 prototype K7555. Wiki isn't too helpful.

I have a postcard of K7555 left to me by my grandfather.

It states Fairey "Battle" Bomber..."Britain Prepared".

I would love to model this aircraft, just as it is in the postcard with the canopy open and the pilot looking towards the photographer in mid flight.

From the black and white postcard, I may be crazy but it seems the aircraft may be painted overall yellow. Yes, I seem to be able to see yellow in black and white . I may be very wrong..

I have an MPM Battle, but I feel this prototype on the postcard may be closer to the old Airfix/Bilek/SK model than the MPM?

Wikipedia does give some information on shape characteristics, but no plans

Any information would be really appreciated
Best regards and happy modelling

Tony

Edited May 4, 2016 by TonyTiger66

[Graham Boak]

P4/34 was a development of the Battle, being smaller and lighter. After failure to sell to Belgium, it was later developed into the Fulmar. A licence was granted to the Danish Navy, but although a production line was set up none were finished. It was later developed into the Fulmar. K7555 was the second prototype P4/34, and as such the wing (8in off each wingtip) will indeed be closer to that of the Airfix tooling, but the higher tailplane and better faired rear canopy should be a giveaway. I recall one modeller (Brian Philpott?) producing a Fulmar for a magazine from the Airfix Battle, which took some work. The MPM is much closer to a Battle.

PS I suspect the colour is light grey. Possibly Sky Grey, or Cerrux Grey, but I don't know.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Graham Boak

[303sqn]

Airfix Magazine 1978.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AIRFIX-MAGAZINE-DEC-1978-FAIREY-P4-34-CONVERSION-PAINT-MODEL-FIGURES-WINDSOR-CAR-/230985719103

[The wooksta V2.0]

You could try backdating the Vista/Smer/Revell Fulmar.I did start it but never finished.

[ClaudioN]

Airfix Magazine 1978.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AIRFIX-MAGAZINE-DEC-1978-FAIREY-P4-34-CONVERSION-PAINT-MODEL-FIGURES-WINDSOR-CAR-/230985719103

I recall the fuselage from a Me. 110 was involved...

[The wooksta V2.0]

Not to mention the wings were reshaped. It was a good article, with some old fashioned kit bashing which few seem to do these days.

Another article around the same time - either inspired by or the inspiration for, I don't recall which - kitbashed a Zero fuselage with Blenheim outer wings to do the Gloster F5/34.

[Greg in OK]

Love to see the photo you mention.

Any chance you could share with us?

Greg in OK

[dogsbody]

After some GOOGLE-ing.

http://warfiles.ru/show-79845-opytnyy-legkiy-bombardirovschik-fairey-p4-34-velikobritaniya.html

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/faireyp4-34.html

Chris

[Work In Progress]

It looks a lot like the Yokosuka D4Y.

[Graham Boak]

I think that's a bit insulting to the more compact and higher performing D4Y, but it does look very much like the design the Belgians actually chose. The Caproni 335 to be built as the SABCA S.47.

Belgium also had a licence for the Polish P-37 Los, which would make an interesting WIF.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Graham Boak

[303sqn]

Belgium also had a licence for the Polish P-37 Los, which would make an interesting WIF.

Belgium did not have a licence to build the Łoś, only Turkey did.

There were two versions offered for export. The P.37C with 970 hp Gnome-Rhone 14N07s and P.37D with 1,030/1,050 hp Gnome-Rhone 14N20/21s. In the summer of 1939 Yugoslavia ordered 20 P.37Cs and Bulgaria 15. Delivery was to be by June 1940. Romania bought 30 P.37Ds paying for the first five when the order was signed and undertook to pay for the next ten in advance by the end of 1939. The remaining 15 were to be paid for over the next three years. Turkey purchased ten P.37Ds together with raw materials and semi-prepared parts for a further 25 as well as a licence for the type to be built in Turkey with the assistance of PZL staff. The Royal Hellenic Air force was finalising an agreement for 12 P.37Ds. Discussions with Denmark, Estonia and Finland were progressing. The Belgian company Constructions Aéronautiques G Renard was in negotiation for the licence rights for the P.37. Seven Polish Łoś bombers were to appear at a display at Brussels Évère aerodrome in July 1939 on the 25^th anniversary of the formation of l'Aèronautique Militaire Belge. To by-pass Germany, the bombers were to fly over the sea via Denmark. The flight was cancelled due to the hazards of the enterprise and closeness of the German coast combined with bad weather.

[TheBaron]

There's an image of K7555 on p.1 of Warpaint no.41 on the Fulmar - is this the same one in your postcard Tony? :

Regards,

Tony

Edited May 2, 2016 by TheBaron

[TonyTiger66]

Hello chaps,

Thanks you so much for all of your help

I must apologise for writing back so late, I had posted the question whilst in 'phone view' and forgotten I need to change the view to get the 'follow thread' button.

Hence I wasn't following my own thread !

Meanwhile I thought I had no replies, after checking today I found out I was very wrong!

Now, for some reason in any view on my phone, I can't 'multiquote'. It gives a message that something is out of memory

So, I would like to reply to each post individually but it is probably best without the multiquote, to just post in one 'catching up' message here.

Thanks Graham, that's the first information I've had and made me realise quite how different this aircraft was to a Battle, yet the Postcard, as we see later, says 'Fairey Battle'. I was quite thrown by this for many pre internet years. Until only last week I didn't know about the P4/34 at all!

Moreover, I have never built a Battle, or a Fulmar (although I have the later in the stash), so I'm really glad I posted this question now as it's very clear I wouldn't have got very far in building K 7555 out of any particular box....

Thanks for finding that 303sqn; I threw caution to the wind and bought it . Postage to Australia was more than the price of the magazine, but one has to treat oneself sometimes .

Thanks The Wooksta and Claudio. I don't have the Smer Fulmar, but I do have a Special Hobby one. I also have an MPM Battle arriving soon from Evilbay. From reviews it seems the MPM Battle is, well, a bit of a 'battle' to build! On the other hand reviews of the SH Fulmar are favourable. Given the weak Aussie dollar, they're both quite expensive kits and I wouldn't want to make a hash of both.

I wonder then, If I should bide my time on Evilbay (and maybe also use the 'wanted' section in the forum), and try to get hold of. a low priced Vista/Smer Fulmar and Airfix Battle. I like kit-bashing so it would be fun to try. Now the Magazine is on its way I'm fascinated to see how a Bf 110 fits into it all

Hi Greg, yes sure, I'll scan it and post to here when I get home

Thanks for the Googling Chris. That's a super page. I'll have to get the home computer to translate the text, but the photos and the profile are great. There's a little English I recognise beneath the profile: 'Sky Type S'. So now The plot Thickens. My yellow is very probably wrong as it wasn't a trainer, then again prototypes seem to often have had yellow undersides. Hmm. Then we have grey. On one of the photographs the roundel blue looks very tonally close to the fuselage colour. Obviously a different type of film stock has been used than on the photos of the same aircraft where there is a large tonal difference.

Could this suggest a grey (being close to the blue), ie a blue grey?

That's fascinating stuff WIP, Graham and 303 sqn. I can certainly see a similarity with the SABCA/Caproni aircraft. I did have a Dujin resin kit if the Belgian aircraft in the stash, but feel it may have been lost in a recent home move. I love the PZL 37 and never knew it had interest from so many countries! I have to model in 1/72 due to space restrictions and the only 1/72 PZL 37 is very much showing its age now; I wish someone would produce a new mould. With Poland and Romania as users and all the 'what-if' possibilities based on the evidence of potential users here, a new mould would surely sell well.

Thanks Tony

That is really helpful. Yes, that's it at the bottom right of the page, This is the way I thought a Battle looked for just over 45 years of my life ! A model simply has to be made with the pilot looking as jolly as that!

Well, thanks again chaps. It's going to be a kitbash for sure. Now to decide; all MPM/Special Hobby group, some of that with Smer/Vista or Airfix/Bilek, or the latter with Smer/Vista......or......Airfix and Bf-110 ?

Then, yellow, grey, Sky Type S, or something else? It looks glossy on the postcard.

I'll post a scan of it later today,

Happy modelling

Tony

Edited for spelling

Edited May 4, 2016 by TonyTiger66

[Graham Boak]

Yellow undersides were a wartime addition, as was Sky Type S.

[tempestfan]

The (original) Vista kit was also boxed by Airfix and Revell, which may broaden your sources. It's quite a smashing little (well actually it's fairly large...) kit and certainly deserves to be built - a bit light on detail but with very nice panel lines.

I have a very dim feeling that Ian Huntley once wrote in his column about something like a pale blue for either the Battle proto or possibly the 4/34. As he certainly was The Man for all things Fairey, it may be worth searching out his columns in SAM between, say, Vol.s 7 and 13. There's an index for SAm to be found online, this may (or not...) give you a lead. But perhaps someone else can chime in and verify if that is only made-up memory or may have some substance.

[TonyTiger66]

Thanks Graham. I just wonder what the colour is for this aircraft, as it seems to be all one shade? The grey shade is very likely, yet an argument towards blue, or a grey blue also seems possible.

More research is needed before deciding, that is certain.

Thanks Tempestfan. You know, that would make the most sense so far, given the photograph of the aircraft where the outer roundel blue almost vanishes into the fuselage colour.

I wonder if there are any other instances of prototypes in blue? Wouldn't it be lovely if it was a PRU blue? It would be a gorgeous model. Pigs might fly.

I'm increasingly thinking of buying that Vista/Revell/Airfix model. I'll also try the SAM index.

Best regards and many thanks

Tony

[TonyTiger66]

Ok chaps. Translation of the Russian gives the following, how do we feel about it?:

Swap to RussianFull screen close

Both prototypes were completely painted in light blue-green color similar to the camouflage Sky Type S. The small figures on the left side show the placement of markings on the wing , as well as accommodation at the bottom of the wing of the serial number

Best Regards

Tony

[Graham Boak]

The Spitfire prototype was a pale blue-grey, about which there has been much discussion, but I'm afraid that's no great assistance as it was entirely up to the manufacturer.

The official colours PRU Blue (which was darker anyway) and Sky were in the future. Ditto a bit early for Sky Blue, which might have been a decent contender as a pretty pale blue. It might be interesting to know if Fairey had seen Cotton's Electra in the colour that became Sky, or just had by pure chance plucked it from the same paint catalogue? However, I'd be reluctant to base a model on a Russian source - at least without finding out what Ian Huntley might have had to say. He would know. I'll see if there's a hint in my index of SAM.

[TonyTiger66]

Hi folks,
Yes, I agree Graham. I would be far more willing to trust a source closer to home. No disrespect to Russian comrades/modelers/authors, it's just one would expect UK resources to be more reliable for UK aircraft, Russian Resources more reliable for Russian aircraft, Japanese for Japanese aircraft and so on. I haven't translated the whole page/es. I wish I had, perhaps there could be non-Russian references. It's getting late here in a land down under, but tomorrow is another day. At least it seems something interesting has been opened to us.

Here is a scan of the postcard as promised. To my eye it really is quite an attractive aircraft. I know it's open to question, but the paint really doesn't seem matt. If anything, it seems quite glossy. There are reflections on the inner port wing and inner port horizontal stabiliser, also bright spots near the cowling. Well, it seems so, these pictures are open to so much interpretation.

Fascinating how it is termed a 'Fairey Battle Bomber'. This postcard according to the reverse, was an RAF issue. I think perhaps it is around 76+ years old now.

Thanks again

Happy modelling
Tony



Edited for spelling.

PS, I have purchased a 'MisterCraft' rebox of the Vista/Smer kit from Evilbay for AUD$10, plus AUD $10 postage from Germany. A starting point - happy

Edited May 4, 2016 by TonyTiger66

[tempestfan]

No idea when it had its first flight, but 80 would be more appropriate, given it's based on a requirement issued in 1934 ;-)

As the fuslegae roundel is mirrored on the port wing, it should have been nicely glossy.

Graham, if you actually burden yourself with it, I have two ideas for starting points: One would be the column were he recounted the story of the Airfix kit and its inaccuracies (I'd hunch in Vol 8 or 9), and perhaps a bit later he did an article on the Henley IIRC, which may have been in two parts - this would fit from the context, possibly.

[Graham Boak]

There's no P4/34 in my index. There was something about Fairey Tales which had me rooting in the depths - i can see the magazines but they are not easy to get at - but there was nothing there on the P4/34. i didn't think about the Battle until after I'd put everything else back... so there's a few more ideas on where to look (fairly obvious, really).

Tony: I wasn't just being patriotic - Ian Huntley actually worked for Fairey. If he said it, it'll be right. Yes, a gloss finish would be normal. Incidentally, you do see the aircraft with the number 5: this was its number in the new Types Display at Hendon Air Show (whatever year it was). The first flight of the P4/34 was 13 January 1937, the second prototype 19th April. Just to make clear, the reduced span of 16 in and the raised tailplane apply to the changes from P4/34 to Fulmar, and K7555 was converted to this - so the photo shows, if anything, a Fulmar not a Battle! The Battle wing is 54 ft, the Fulmar 47ft 4½in, making the P4/34 48ft 8½in?

The Battle prototype appears to be in overall Aluminium, as correct for aircraft in that role, at that time.

PS Aluminium for the Battle is confirmed by William Harrison, who seems to have become the writer on Fairey subjects nowadays. However, Geoffrey Bussey (in the Fulmar Warpaint) describes the P4/34 as being in Sky Grey overall. Despite what is said in several sources, the raised tailplane appears to be a feature of both P4/34 - not a change introduced for the Fulmar, which didn't have this! There are some differences in the span quoted for the Battle - I didn't look at Fulmars.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Graham Boak

[303sqn]

According to Ian Huntley, Fairey Battle Aviation Guide:-

"The prototype Battle K4303 (F.2121) first appeared during March 1936 in unpainted form, with red primer on the fabric-covered control surfaces. The registration was applied in Night in eight-inch high characters on the rear fuselage and on each side of the rudder. After its first flight (and several modifications later) it was painted Aluminium dope overall, the standard colour for all but heavy bombers at this time, which exhibited a very fine matt finish. The registration was reapplied in Night in eight-inch high characters on the rear fuselage and on each side of the rudder and the Aluminium selected was the new Cellon 'X' finish.right National markings were apllied in Bright Red, White and Blue (colloquilly 'Type A'), positioned at the extreme wing tips (but not overlapping the aileron hinge line), and on the fuselage sides at the root fairing location. These were of 70in diameter on the wings and 35in for the fuselage. Standard W/T bonding marks: component serials, factory inspection marks, AID stamps, and finish markings, appeared in all relevant loactions, also in Night. Internal paint finish including the cockpit and wheel wells was prior to the grey-green colour we refer to as 'Interior Green' and was in fact a commercial metal primer called Cerrux MP4, a light khaki-green close to FS 595a 34172."

Edited May 4, 2016 by 303sqn

[TonyTiger66]

Hello again and thank you very much for all the helpful information. I have done more Googling on K4/34 K7555; the one I would like to model.
I feel that the dull aluminium finish was applied to this aircraft. Nevertheless I feel there is also a chance it was repainted once, perhaps twice?

There are a good number of photographs that support the aluminium scheme in terms of it being dull; the aircraft appears to be an almost Matt grey in these photographs.
The aircraft seems to have been involved in trials right through until 1941. I found this pdf of tests of the Youngman Flap. On pages 8 to 10 are photographs of K7555 and it looks like it has been repainted a much darker colour.

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/arc/rm/2547.pdf

In earlier posts it has been mentioned that sky, yellow etc. were war colours therefore not appropriate for the aircraft. Nevertheless it had a career that took it into the war from at least September 1939 to June 1941. Thus if repainted during these wartime years, could it be possible that the colour the aircraft appears in within this document is a wartime colour?

It certainly looks far darker than in all other pictures one can find with a quick Google of P4/34 and simply choosing 'images'.
I feel strongly that all pictures of the aircraft with the number 7 present are in the flat aluminium scheme.
I'm still not convinced that is the colour of the aircraft in the very glossy finish on my postcard, but I may have to live with my delusion .

That aside, any comments on the photographs in the Youngman Flap tests document?



Thanks again chaps,
Best regards
Tony

Edited May 8, 2016 by TonyTiger66

[TheBaron]

Hi Tony.

Had a quick of that Flap report (nice one on the NACA site BTW - I wasn't aware of that and am off to burrow in it later this afternoon ).

The lateral shots on p.9 are a real poser due to the tonal variation in what ostensibly looks like the same series of sequential photographs. From top to bottom the photographs get progressively lighter don't they? Makes it very hard to draw a consistent conclusion.

In terms of interpreting colour from black& white imagery, it's the same kind of effect encountered in an imaging program like Photoshop. If you look at the individual colour channels (RGB) for a full colour image, each red/green/blue channel gives a tonally different b/w version of the colour original, due to the varying intensity of the respective primary colours. The top illustration on p.9 would make me think something like a dark blue paint job, whereas the bottom one paradoxically could, as you suggest, a matt grey variation.

If the aircraft were originally painted a lighter colour like Sky, then on the evidence here it was clearly painted a darker scheme at some point in its life, but the inconsistent quality of the reproduction process is not definitive enough in this instance to diagnose an exact colour from the photographic evidence, in my opinion

I did come across some different views of K7555 here:

(http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/fairey_p4-34.php)

And here:

There's a couple book references at: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/faireyp4-34.htmlas well but I don't know how helpful they might be...

Failing any definitive information coming forward, this does of course allow you an educated guess/poetic license on the matter of colour, which no-one can criticize you for.

Kudos for plugging away at this one...

Regards,

Tony

Edited May 8, 2016 by TheBaron

[TheBaron]

Meant to say as well, note the bombs under the starboard wing in the 4th picture down....

Edited May 8, 2016 by TheBaron