Defiant exhausts

[zebra]

I'm currently building the Airfix 1/48 Defiant as N3437 of 307 Sqn when it was based at RAF Jury in the Isle of Man in 1941. The Xtradecal instructions say it had a six stack exhaust and one photograph I've found online confirms this.

Now I often build models without much research (although there would be exceptions to this) and this wouldn't bother me if I found out after the event - but if I know in advance that I need to change something, it bothers me, so I've sourced a suitable (I think) six stack exhaust.

The thing that's bugging me now isn't what exhausts were used, but why were they switched to the six stack exhaust? I'm not aware of contemporary Spits and Hurricanes at that stage having them (may well be wrong - I'm no expert) so it seems a bit out of time, and whilst it occurred to me that it might have been to reduce glare from the exhaust at night, there were 3 stack fishtail exhausts for that (and included in the kit). Anyone on here know why they did it?

[mhaselden]

Any chance you could post a link to the pic you found online? I'm having difficulties finding any photo that is positively identifiable as N3437 and would like to see what you've uncovered.

[zebra]

I found this from google images: http://pwm.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18239

It's a Polish forum. Half way down the page there's a photo where the serial and code aren't visible but the description says it's N3437. There's also a photo of the nose of another Defiant at the bottom of the page which clearly has a six stack exhaust.

[stevehnz]

It doesn't look as though this was too unusual. Page 32 of the Osprey book of Defiant, Blanheim & Havoc Aces, shows a photo of a 256 sqn Defiant also with 6 stack exhausts plus several other throughout the book now that I've had a decent look. I note that several others on the 1/48 Xtradecal sheet show similar exhausts. Its a pity they don't feature the 307 scheme on the 1/72 sheet, I really like the Temperate scheme uppers over the black undersides.

Steve

Edited to add to earlier info.

Edited April 25, 2016 by stevehnz

[Work In Progress]

That's a good question. It's well documented that the six stack exhaust is technically superior to the three stack arrangements in terms of serviceability and aircraft performance, even if the differences are relatively modest, so if they had them available I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't fit them. However it's a mystery to me how the Defiant got them so early, and if they were readily available then, why we didn't start to see them being retrofitted on to Spitfires and Hurricanes earlier in the war.

Moving into speculation, it may also be that from the night-flying perspective converting three larger jets of flame into six smaller ones reduces the overall effect of the glare somewhat. Thinking about it I am puzzled that The fact that the Defiant was not (as far as I know) ever deemed to require Hurricane-style 'blinkers' , despite putting the pilot in an very similar location in relation to the exhausts, also mystifies me.

Incidentally, according to the RAF website 307 left Jury in January 1941 so if that pic of N3437 is from Jury in 1941 that implies it is from a very narrow window in time.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/307squadron.cfm

[303sqn]

There are at least four photographs of N3437. The two gentlemen sitting on the wheel are Sergeants Karais on the left and Jankowiak on the right. They were taken at the end of April 1941 at Exeter. IIRC they were obtained in the 1990s from former girlfriends.

N3437 was never at Jurby, it did not join the squadron until February 1941. At that time the squadron was sending its Defiants away to have radar installed and N3437 may have been a replacement.

I have reservations about it being in the Temperate Land Scheme with black undersides. To me it looks like the the Special Night has almost completely worn away exposing the ordinary/smooth Night undercoat through which the original camouflage can be seen.

Edited April 25, 2016 by 303sqn

[andym]

There are at least four photographs of N3437. The two gentlemen sitting on the wheel are Sergeants Karais on the left and Jankowiak on the right. They were taken at the end of April 1941 at Exeter. IIRC they were obtained in the 1990s from former girlfriends.

N3437 was never at Jurby, it did not join the squadron until February 1941. At that time the squadron was sending its Defiants away to have radar installed and N3437 may have been a replacement.

I have reservations about it being in the Temperate Land Scheme with black undersides. To me it looks like the the Special Night has almost completely worn away exposing the ordinary/smooth Night undercoat through which the original camouflage can be seen.

There is some agreement here:

http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.com/307/307_aircraft.html

Note that it states the spinner should be red!

HTH

Andy

Edited April 25, 2016 by andym

[303sqn]

I am Antoni Lachetta.

[stevehnz]

Print Scale decals would have us believe that that EW-K, N3437 was on strength with 307 sqn in Sept 1940 while they were stationed at Kirton-in-Lindsey. Least wise, thats what they say.

Steve.

[Work In Progress]

Corgi thinks the same.

http://www.flyingmule.com/products/CG-AA39303

[Graham Boak]

N3437 cannot have been with 307 Sqn in September 1940, as it wasn't delivered to 10 MU until 29.12.40. This delivery date is consistent with those serials around it. It is then recorded at 307 Sqn 1.2.41, and then at 96 Sqn 3.9.41. I'm afraid that Corgi, Print Scale (and Pavla) cannot be right. As I have the Pavla kit in the final stages of assembly, with the TLS/Night scheme already painted, I'm not impressed with the suggestion that it should be Night overall! Not too surprised, though. It's a shame as it would have been a different scheme for a Defiant.

However, I do find the following unlikely "To me it looks like the the Special Night has almost completely worn away exposing the ordinary/smooth Night undercoat through which the original camouflage can be seen." Whereas Special Night did wear rapidly, I don't think any Night undercoat would in this timescale - not the extent of showing yet another scheme underneath that. Either it was originally painted in Night and you are seeing just patterns of wear, or the Special Night was applied on top of the TLS. I suspect the latter.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Graham Boak

[AndyL]

Reference the six stack exhausts fitted to the Defiant, I too cannot understand why they were not more widely fitted.

They were referred to as 'Blue Note' exhausts, based on the those fitted to the Bf 109 and added around 20 mph to the top speed of the Defiant. The first sets were apparently issued to 141 Squadron at Gravesend. As to use by Hurricane units, I know there were several airframes with them fitted on the strength of 79 Squadron at Pembury when they were engaged in the night defence of South Wales.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

just a random thought ....

Is it possible the black paint used was actually the 'temporary black distemper ' ?

might this explain the 'worn effect' as it was 'washing off ' during use of the sircraft ?

or is this the same paint as 'special night ' ?

cheers

jerry

Edited April 25, 2016 by brewerjerry

[Graham Boak]

6-a-side exhausts were later seen on Spitfire Mk.Vc, mainly (I believe) those with the Merlin 55. Plus the equivalent Seafires. They were also seen on bombers but there the need for hiding the exhaust was considered more important than a few mph. 20 seems a little optimistic: the effect of jet exhausts (as opposed to one per cylinder) is, I think, buried somewhere in my Spitfire books, but will vary depending upon the original exhausts it is being compared with. I notice that the Mk.II Defiant didn't have these exhausts, suggesting an early limited production given to those that required them the most i.e. those still stuck with the Merlin III. However, the Mk.II did have fishtails rather than the earlier style on the Mk.I, so perhaps these provided most of the benefit at a lower production cost?

PS The distemper is not the same as Special Night (otherwise known as RDM2).

Edited April 25, 2016 by Graham Boak

[303sqn]

Print Scale decals would have us believe that that EW-K, N3437 was on strength with 307 sqn in Sept 1940 while they were stationed at Kirton-in-Lindsey. Least wise, thats what they say.

Steve.

This is another fine example of the problem that besets this hobby – making everything up and finding nothing out.

There are two photographs of a 307 Defiant in the LTS taken at Kirton-in-Lindsey, serial unknown which was coded K. On that basis, despite a number of very obvious differences, someone has assumed that this and N3437 are the same Defiant. There are even profiles published of it with black-and-white undersides. Black-and-white undersides in September 1940? That alone is enough to question its veracity.

The style of the letter K is very different from that of codes on N3437. The exhausts! No chessboards. 307 did not apply chessboards to its aircraft until January 1941. The spinner tip is white not coloured. Perhaps it was originally intended to go to 264 Squadron? Obviously does not have black-and-white undersides.

Because of shortages of Special Night when it was introduced a first coat of Night was applied. The practice was then continued when it was found that it helped Special Night to adhere better.

There are only a handful of photographs of 307's Defiants and they are all very black. The RAF Museum's example was painted in the LTS with black undersides in the 1970s I think. It also had a spurious squadron badge. No idea why that was done.

18 Defiant Mk I were delivered to 307 Squadron between 14^th and 19^th September, six being sent to Caistor for dispersal. They were: L7035, N1559, N1560, N1624, N1639, N1640, N1641, N1642, N1643, N1671, N1675, N1682, N1683, N1684, N1686, N1695, N1696, N1704. On 6^th January 1941 HQ no 9 Group advised that five improved Defiants fitted with VHF R/T radios would operate from from Squires Gate from 9^th January to provide night defence for the Liverpool area. N3315, N3435, N1809, N3391, N3401 arrived at Jurby on 6^th and 7^th January. The detachment led by S/Ldrs Tomlinson and Grodzicki landed at Squires Gate at noon on the 9^th January as ordered. These were the first of the Squadrons Defiants to have chessboards applied. On 12^th January the squadron were informed that they would be provided with VHF radio-eqipped Defiants and move to Squires Gate on 20^th January. During the next few days the squadron returned most of its Defiants for modification and TOC 10 replacements. The move was delayed because of bad weather. On 23^rd January, on express orders of HQ No 9 Group, a section of three Defiants attempted to reach Squires Gate. Only one landed without mishap, one landed at Southport subsequently making its way to Squires Gate, the third was damaged in a crash landing near Ormskirk. The move was finally achieved on 27^th January.

[Ivor Ramsden]

The only photo of a 307 Squadron Defiant which is known for certain to have been taken at Jurby is of N1684 EW-A in day camouflage scheme with a black spinner. It's fitted with 3-stack exhausts and the code letters are grey.

303Sqn's information in post 15 above re aircraft movements agrees with the info that I've got, which comes from the Squadron ORBs.

[303sqn]

Where is this photogrpah please.

[Ivor Ramsden]

Here:

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57021-boulton-paul-defiant-mystery-picture/?hl=jurby

[rav]

Thanks Ivor, brilliant and unseen photo!

[zebra]

hmmmm... cat amongst the pigeons, can of worms opened and spanner in the works!

Somebody somewhere seems to have done a little research but sadly when two and two were put together... well we know the rest... and the error has been perpetuated an magnified with at least Corgi, Print Scale, Pavla and Xtradecal (my erroneous source... that'll teach me) picking it up and running with it.

So, what do do now? I could just go ahead and build it as N3437 as originally planned, but doing a Jury-based aircraft is important to me so that's not an option. If I hadn't started this thread I could have just carried on in blissful ignorance! But many thanks to all on here who've set me on the right track.

Looks like I'm going to have to cobble together the decals for N1684 and find another use for my six stack exhausts. Shame, I liked the look of the temperate land scheme with night undersides.

[tempestfan]

While it may not help much, there was a book by Skrzydlata Polska more than 25 years ago dealing with the Polish Squadrons in the RAF. While printed on very inferior paper and the info possibly outdated, this book was a revelation to me back then (and it contains a number of Defiant pics, for sure - if they came from Polish sources, maybe there are some less well known among them ?). I know, this doesn't help with the six-stack question...

[Ivor Ramsden]

Good luck with your build, Zebra, but please note that RAF Jurby has a "B" in it, it isn't Jury!

[zebra]

I definitely would have typed Jurby! B****y autocorrect!

[Tom Cobbley]

I have been following this discussion with real interest. I am close to finishing mine as all black EW - H T3991 of 307 sqn using the Modelmaker decal sheet. The exhaust pattern debate has arrived just as I am about them attach them to my model.

I have realized that there are very few images of 307 Defiants around, and I have almost every publication on WW2 PAF on my shelf (it has taken 40 years!). Almost all of them have been posted on this discussion.

My question is are there any images of T3991 out there that Modelmaker would have used for their sheet? Now I know there is a choice, my pedantry will mean this one heads for the shelf of doom until I know the answer.

[303sqn]

While it may not help much, there was a book by Skrzydlata Polska more than 25 years ago dealing with the Polish Squadrons in the RAF. While printed on very inferior paper and the info possibly outdated, this book was a revelation to me back then (and it contains a number of Defiant pics, for sure - if they came from Polish sources, maybe there are some less well known among them ?). I know, this doesn't help with the six-stack question...

Godło I barwa w lotnictwie polskim 1939 – 1945 was published in 1987. There are no photographs of Defiants in it.

The PISM has a few in its archive, location Exeter. They can be found in a few publications, 307 Dywizjon Myśliwski Nocny, Robert Gretzyngier, Bellona 2005, Polish Air Force 1939-1945, Dr. Jan Koniarek, Squadron/signal Publications 1994, Boulton Paul Defiant, Mark Ansell, Mushroom Models Publications 2005. They are sometimes credited to Witold Sylwestrowicz so may have originated from his archive. Sylwestrowicz was the squadron's technical officer. Later he trained as a radar operator. I have not seen a photograph where a Defiant coded H can be identified.

T3391 has probably been taken from a profile in the MMP book. Little information is given and I do not know what has been used as a basis for the profile.