Effect of scale on paint-what are people's views?

[TheBaron]

I'd been thinking about the effect of paint textures in relation to scale recently (I'm battling a 1/72 Swordfish and trying to approximate maritime weathering..) but hadn't really considered the effect of paint lightness in relation to particular scales as suggested here:

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_scaleeffect.htm

I wonder what people's views and experiences are in relation to such modulation of paint schemes?

[Bozothenutter]

Extending this reasoning...shouldn't all scale finishes be gloss?

Scale paint particles down, paint becomes smoother and glossier? 😈

[Nick Belbin]

Do you mean textures? You wouldn't notice anything - in 1/24 where 1" = 1mm (approx), you're talking thousands of an inch in texture that you've then to 'transfer'. Then reduce that further for 1/72nd . . .

Colour scale effects have been discussed here several times, just have a look through.

Nick

[TheBaron]

Colour scale effects have been discussed here several times, just have a look through.

Eludia's thread is here for anyone else looking:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234977669-scale-colour-effect/?hl=%2Bcolour+%2Bscale

Fascinating debate.

Tony

[bhouse]

in 1/24 where 1" = 1 inch (approx)

Nick

*cough* 😉

[hacker]

Effect of scale on paint-what are people's views? Well for me it falls into the category of "Who cares and just paint the dam thing!" Some of us as modellers over think this stuff and l really never bought into it. Weathering yes, fading of fabric surfaces yes, even the occasional pre shading but scale effect nope. To me olive drab is olive drab whether from 2 inches or 2 miles it still the same colour.

Edited April 17, 2016 by hacker

[Nick Belbin]

*cough*

Yeah, sorry, 1/24 - 1" = 1mm . . .

[Radleigh]

Effect of scale on paint-what are people's views? Well for me it falls into the category of "Who cares and just paint the dam thing!" Some of us as modellers over think this stuff and l really never bought into it. Weather yes, fading of fabric surfaces yes, even the occasional pre shading but scale effect nope. To me olive drab is olive drab whether from 2 inches or 2 miles it still the same colour.

What Hacker said.

[JohnT]

Tend to agree with Raleigh and Hacker if for no other reason than one day standing looking at a Danish F-104 up close and noting that while I presume it had been spray painted the same green shade at one time she was now every shade of green and some browns as well. It was then I kinda took a more relaxed view on colour call out

[mirageiv]

It depends on what you are modelling imho, some things it really is very noticeable. For example compare an exact paint chip of Fs 26270, then look at a Norwegian F-16 which is painted in that colour, they look very different and to me the real jet looks way lighter and needs white added to the colour to look ok for a 1/72 model. As I say though I think it depends on the subject and I don't usually do it unless it is very noticeable difference.

DAvid

[Panzer Vor!!!]

What about scale weight ???

What's a 60 ton tank in 1/35 scale weigh ??

I'm trying to find scales that will cope with it

I'm losing sleep over this my models are just NOT right

Agggggh

[whitestar12chris]

I can see a new modelling line scale paint brushes to achieve that just right painted look. might be a bit difficult to hold and paint though. come in 1/24, 1/35, 1/48 etc.

And for those whose spray, scale airbrushes, breath powered,as compressor will blow them to bits.

Yours Entrepeneur Chris (Paint to Scale ltd) otherwise known as just paint the damn thing incorporated.

[TheBaron]

I'm sensing some *slight* skepticism here

I thought the posts from Heraldcoupe and Nick Millman in Eludia's earlier thread is were quite telling regarding subjective effects. Personally I tend agree with many of the statements like Hacker's in this thread; we are after all creating an illusion of something out of plastic and paint, rather than an identical physical duplicate of the original.

I got onto thinking about this subject originally when taking close-up photos of model aircraft and realising that getting too close at a particular scale (like 1/72) results in the illusory painted appearance of physical materials breaking down (things like leather in cockpits, soil in dioramas are good examples of natural textures this happens to). I work with CGI in film so am used to the 'virtual' version of this problem, i.e., how close can that computer-generated aircraft come to the viewer before a given level of detail and texture break down; it's why materials design is such a big deal in this area as you have to think about how different physical materials respond to light.The same kind of problems are faced by physical model makers for film productions when constructing what are known as 'bigatures' (as an analogy think of all those ropey 1950/60s film FX when the beautifully-modelled dam breaks and yet the water bursting through contradicts it by looking and behaving at the wrong scale for the size of the event).

I was really just interested to see had anyone incorporated colour-scaling into a build here - and whether others had even noticed it in the final result.

whitestar12chris: will you accept 1/48 money for them fancy brushes?

Cheers all for a good afternoon's read,

Tony

Edited April 17, 2016 by TheBaron

[LaurieS]

I'm sensing some *slight* skepticism here

I thought the posts from Heraldcoupe and Nick Millman in Eludia's earlier thread is were quite telling regarding subjective effects. Personally I tend agree with many of the statements like Hacker's in this thread; we are after all creating an illusion of something out of plastic and paint, rather than an identical physical duplicate of the original.

I got onto thinking about this subject originally when taking close-up photos of model aircraft and realising that getting too close at a particular scale (like 1/72) results in the illusory painted appearance of physical materials breaking down (things like leather in cockpits, soil in dioramas are good examples of natural textures this happens to). I work with CGI in film so am used to the 'virtual' version of this problem, i.e., how close can that computer-generated aircraft come to the viewer before a given level of detail and texture break down; it's why materials design is such a big deal in this area as you have to think about how different physical materials respond to light.The same kind of problems are faced by physical model makers for film productions when constructing what are known as 'bigatures' (as an analogy think of all those ropey 1950/60s film FX when the beautifully-modelled dam breaks and yet the water bursting through contradicts it by looking and behaving at the wrong scale for the size of the event).

I was really just interested to see had anyone incorporated colour-scaling into a build here - and whether others had even noticed it in the final result.

whitestar12chris: will you accept 1/48 money for them fancy brushes?

Cheers all for a good afternoon's read,

Tony

Very interesting question Tony and one which will be revisited many times. In the end it depends on what

you find more attractive.

More important for me. When an aircraft comes out of the factory it looks as it should

perfect. But after being in the air or perhaps Afganistan the paint work takes a hell of a beating.

That is both in sand blasting and the bleaching effect of the sun.

The Airfix Merlin I built had the final colour so much different to the colour coming out of Westlands

as represented as being in service in Afgahnistan..

Parts are taken off and renewed when in service panels replaced and the engineer put a coat of paint on the disturbed area and

in the end it becomes a bit of a patch work quilt. To follow that in a model will look, to me, a bit peculiar.

Also if you see an army vehicle or an RAF Helicopter or aircraft on the tarmac in cloudy conditions or in bright sunlight

a photographer will tell you the white light changes the apparent colour. The colour on your shelf of the finished aircraft

will also look different if in average domestic lighting, yellow tinge (Kelvin 3000) or if in daylight lighting (Kelvin6000).

So I take my pick of all those. Also, sacrilege, what appeals to me finally on the shelf.

Matter of interest I built the Tamiya Swordfish and I obtained a lot of information from the Fleet Air Arm museum.

Below if a photo showing a Swordfish belonging to HMS Tracker. Shows what a state they got into in service. May

help with the weathering effects situation. Other photos I obtained at the time of building show great areas where the paint

had been stripped off. Again to effect that situation will , again for me, look over the top.

https://www.google.com/search?q=swordfish+aircraft+pictures&safe=active&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjen-f4spbMAhWF6RQKHRENDE0Q7AkIMQ&biw=1600&bih=702

This gives a few among the pristine which show some effects of weather and service.

Laurie

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[TheBaron]

Hi Laurie,

What you say about lighting conditions / colour temp is bang on regarding colour perception.

I've just gotten Ray Sturtivant's book on the Stringbag and there's some well beaten up ones in there too. On the subject of textures I wonder what's going on with the sea conditions in that photo of yours - there seem to be two sets of waves intersecting at 90 degrees to each other...

Edited April 17, 2016 by TheBaron

[Alan P]

Speaking personally, I think "scale effect" is nonsensical between different scales. If you consider the size difference between a 1:1 scale object and its 1/32 scale counterpart, there is a large relative difference in size from a human point of view. If there is any likely change of colour perception it will be in contrast rather than shade.

If you then extend the scale to 1/72, or even 1/350, the relative size change from 1/32, to a human eye, is small. The idea that colour perception will change to any noticeable degree between scales is to me quite unbelievable.

[LaurieS]

Hi Laurie,

What you say about lighting conditions / colour temp is bang on regarding colour perception.

I've just gotten Ray Sturtivant's book on the Stringbag and there's some well beaten up ones in there too. On the subject of textures I wonder what's going on with the sea conditions in that photo of yours - there seem to be two sets of waves intersecting at 90 degrees to each other...

On the wave thing I suspect that it may be the influence of the convoy. I suspect that Tracker would have been in the middle to protect the ship.

Laurie

[LaurieS]

Speaking personally, I think "scale effect" is nonsensical between different scales. If you consider the size difference between a 1:1 scale object and its 1/32 scale counterpart, there is a large relative difference in size from a human point of view. If there is any likely change of colour perception it will be in contrast rather than shade.

If you then extend the scale to 1/72, or even 1/350, the relative size change from 1/32, to a human eye, is small. The idea that colour perception will change to any noticeable degree between scales is to me quite unbelievable.

Agree on that Alan on the scale thing. I on average put in a bit of white "to give scale effect". The white does

not change the colour (or hue).

It is wrong to use the term colour but we all do it, at least some, but generally meaning lightening which is tinting..

In the same way we use shade to describe sometimes a slight change of colour or lightening where as in fact it

is actually the adding of black to darken a colour.

As is adding white to a colour which is tinting but is used a lot to describe the slight changing of a colour.

Laurie

[Trenton guy]

Obviously color and "scale color" are a matter of personal preference. My own is for lightening, but I think "scale color" is not really useful term for that practice. Long ago training in the graphic arts suggested that the atmosphere lightens our perception of color and that the further an object is the more pronounced the effect. At this point there very few molders who need to be convinced that jet black object needs to be represented by some type of dark grey to look realistic. I think that concept goes for any color. Another expression of that effect is that large areas of color always seem to look lighter tha a small color chip of the same color.

An aircraft sitting on an airfield will look much lighter than a model of the same aircraft if they are painted with identical paint. Back in the 1960's I made a number of models in the the new South East Aisia scheme using "authentic" model paints. Not long after the U.S. Army provided an all expense paid trip to Vietnam Nam. Upon arrival at Pleiku Air Force Base I discovered that the USAF was not using the right colors, so much lighter did they appear.

A final point, I have had the opportunity to attend a few US Nationals and one in the UK. In spite of the very fine craftsmanship on display I am always somewhat disappointed because the model all look so dark. A personal thing I suppose, but I much prefer models that look like actual aircraft sitting on an airfield.

[unlikeKansas]

What about scale weight ???

What's a 60 ton tank in 1/35 scale weigh ??

I'm trying to find scales that will cope with it

I'm losing sleep over this my models are just NOT right

Agggggh

Aprox 1.4 Kilograms

[LaurieS]

Aprox 1.4 Kilograms

If the tank was authentically built to scale it would weigh

1.714285714 tons.In proportion to your tonnage system used.

Not sure what tonnage system you are in Kansas !

UK avoirdupas 2240 lbs ton

North America 2000 lbs a ton.

Do not lose sleep or you will lose weight. The only difference that

weight makes to colour in scale is that the paint will weigh just

1/35 of the full size tank.

Laurie

[cruiserguy]

Hi Everyone,

I've been off the board for a while as I am not building anything at the moment, but thought I'd pitch in here.

Does worrying about "scale effect" really matter? Surely what is more important is a well constructed model, with a good paint finish, however you do it. I build 700 and 1200 scale warships, and if I were to aim for "scale accuracy" in colour my guess is I would paint the things grey and nothing else for at 700 metres or 1200 metres from a ship that's about all you would see on the real things. A bit different if you are building liners, ferries or passenger ships though, but it would be pretty hard to get the "scale colours" right for a 700 or 1200 scale Titanic.

I think the best thing to do is we should build and finish a model to the best of our ability, make sure the next one is better, and above all enjoy it. After all, modelling is a hobby, we're supposed to enjoy it not obsess over colours.

Best Wishes,

Will.

[RJP]

Two other factors to consider:

1. What about decals? Scale effect can be done easily enough but are the various decal makers on board? All that artistry and it gets thrown off for a too-stark set of stickies?

2. What light source will be used when viewing the finished model? I'm going over to daylight LED bulbs in room lamps and they sure make things look very different from what they were under the old style incandescents.

My answer to the Bonus Question, the one about the 60 ton tank:

In 1/35 scale 60 tons comes down to 2.79 lbs in the US. Those extra dimensions, height and width, can sneak up on a guy.

Edited April 18, 2016 by RJP

[Caerbannog]

I remember Cutting Edge did some sheets with scale colour. I seem to remember they had dark grey instead of black for swasticas and such, but not sure what they did with other colours.

Knowing about scale colour I pretty much ignore it. I tone down silver with grey but that is it at the moment.

René

[Panzer Vor!!!]

Hi

Don't forget crew fuel ammo rations ???

Or is it parade style ?

Museum ?

D