Hurricane Spaghetti Scheme

[Mark Mackenzie]

This may be old news but the colours of this well known scheme are described in the Diary of an Australian pilot, John Jackson:

"24/1/41 Took delivery of six Hurricanes, and aren't they beauties! The new type of mottled blue, grey and purple camouflage - on the nose, leading edges of wings and front surfaces - looks most peculiar".

witth details at:

http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/jackson2.htm

[85sqn]

Thats a really ijnteresting recollection. Cheers for sharing.

[MilneBay]

Blue, grey and purple - well that's clarified things. Thanks for posting it.

[dalea]

Elementary, dear Watson. Try Grigio Azzuro Chiaro, Grigio Azzurro Scuro 3 & Marrone Mimetico or their R.A.F equivalents.

[tonyot]

I think that same quote is in the `Mediterranean Air War-Vol 1' by Chris Shores and has been discussed elsewhere,.....but it is still a very interesting observation isn`t it.

Having originally gone along with the `Italian' camo argument for aircraft made to look like Italian aircrat to fool enemy gunners as low level,.....following more research and finding out that the scheme was most probably introduced first by Fleet Air Arm pilots of 806 NAS onto their Fulmar`s to help break up the shape of their aircraft while creeping up on Italian SM.79`s which could pile on the coals and then pull away from the slower Fulmar`s if spotted,..... the adoption of blue, grey and purple would seem to be a good head on camouflage to break op the outline of the aircraft in an air to air envoronment,......although some appear to also use a silver background too,....or at least a metallic looking light colour with silver added. Maybe there were a number of variations to this scheme?

Cheers

Tony

[Graham Boak]

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234922498-hurricane-spaghetti-scheme-i-said-it-was-blue/page-1?hl=%20spaghetti%20%20scheme

However, on the internet there are always people turning up and finding it new to them, or who have not encountered anything other than the myths/dodgy assumptions in the old books. This particular thread is long, mainly because of diversions onto the "Tropical Land scheme" and desert Typhoons - some good stuff from Milne Bay, amongst others - but there's much in it about "spaghetti" and it is worth a study. There are other threads too, but generally covering the same ground. Probably (I haven't checked) with odd nuggets of fact and additional pictures, more seem to be appearing all the time.

[Nick Millman]

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234922498-hurricane-spaghetti-scheme-i-said-it-was-blue/page-1?hl=%20spaghetti%20%20scheme

However, on the internet there are always people turning up and finding it new to them, or who have not encountered anything other than the myths/dodgy assumptions in the old books. This particular thread is long, mainly because of diversions onto the "Tropical Land scheme" and desert Typhoons - some good stuff from Milne Bay, amongst others - but there's much in it about "spaghetti" and it is worth a study. There are other threads too, but generally covering the same ground. Probably (I haven't checked) with odd nuggets of fact and additional pictures, more seem to be appearing all the time.

Odd, there are only two one liners from Milne Bay in that thread, one of which is flippant. Don't you mean Mark Mackenzie who posted copies of many interesting and revealing documents?

AFAIK they are not one and the same!

Nick

[Graham Boak]

I saw Milne Bay as one of the contributors on the desert Typhoons as I was flicking through that long thread, but didn't pay too close attention because I was looking for something else. The name-check was meant to be specific to the Typhoons. There was no intention of confusing him with Mark, or neglecting Mark's (or anyone else's) contribution to the Tropical Land discussions. Both are digressions from the blue spaghetti theme of the thread.

[Etiennedup]

Has this one been aired in the previous threads?

.....SAAF version.

[dogsbody]

The topic was discussed here a few months ago.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234998125-interesting-hurricane-paint-job/

Chris

[Graham Boak]

Etiennedup: I don't think I've seen that one before, but it shows the classic features of the base colour being lighter than all three camouflage colours. It looks as though this aircraft has been freshly painted, as it lacks unit and individual codes. What is clear about this one is that the two colours in the mottle are both darker than the Middle Stone, ruling that out as one of the mottle colours. Only a small piece of information, but it all helps.

[Mark Mackenzie]

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[MilneBay]

Odd, there are only two one liners from Milne Bay in that thread, one of which is flippant. Don't you mean Mark Mackenzie who posted copies of many interesting and revealing documents?

AFAIK they are not one and the same!

Nick

Indeed and I was momentarily puzzled as to why I had posted so much when after reading that I discovered that I had indeed, as you say only posted twice, and one was as you so caustically point out "flippant" (one meaning of which is "not showing a serious or respectful attitude."). However I feel that I was redeemed by my expressing some interest in where the colours were obtained from. I would like to say that I am never disrespectful of your insights into the technology of paint Nick - sometimes I may go glassy eyed but I never feel anything other than awe.

However somewhere on another thread on this topic I did raise a point regarding the reason for this use of the "spaghetti" patterns because I still do not see much purpose for them. At normal air combat viewing distances the head on appearance of any aircraft is such as to be too small and indistinct to allow much or any colours of this subtlety to be discerned. Thus the later appearance of the red spinners which do stand out because of their colour and size or in other theaters the use of yellow leading edges. In fact if one waited until the leading edge colour could be discerned then if it was an oncoming enemy aircraft then it would probably be too late. Now I may have missed something but is there anywhere any official order regarding this painting variation with the reason, colours and appearance specified.

Edit: I see that my question was answered while I was typing it (thanks Mark). Still was any operational experience offered which led to the practice.

Edited April 12, 2016 by MilneBay

[Graham Boak]

It's a general principle that the lighter an aircraft is, the more difficult it is see in the sky. This means than an aircraft can be closer without being seen, giving an obvious operational advantage. The same principle can be seen in the use of white by anti-submarine aircraft, with wrap-around leading edges, or light grey by night fighters.

The competing and often contradictory requirements of camouflage and identification can be seen throughout history.

[Nick Millman]

Indeed and I was momentarily puzzled as to why I had posted so much when after reading that I discovered that I had indeed, as you say only posted twice, and one was as you so caustically point out "flippant" (one meaning of which is "not showing a serious or respectful attitude."). However I feel that I was redeemed by my expressing some interest in where the colours were obtained from. I would like to say that I am never disrespectful of your insights into the technology of paint Nick - sometimes I may go glassy eyed but I never feel anything other than awe.

Well, I didn't mean flippant caustically but only in the context of Graham's puzzling attribution! I probably should have said 'humorous' which would have been better.

Mea culpa.

Nick

[Nick Millman]

Sorry guys, I had forgotten about the earlier post, which includes the same link.

This is also from an earlier post by Graham, which ties in nicely with the RAAF pilot's description:-

Paul Lucas has uncovered the following statement in the Operational Record Book of the Repair and Maintenance Branch, HQ RAF ME, Cairo.

"7.10.40 Appropriate units given procedure for camouflaging frontal portions of Hurricane aircraft (with V.84 followed by a light and irregular application of very pale blue and green)., in order to effect confusion and miscalculation of range by enemy gunners."

Punctuation as original. V.84 is Aluminium, in pre-war nomenclature.

So it was aluminium after all - although Graham still desperately wants it to be pale blue! (joking) ;-)

Aluminium Covering V.84 goes back a long way and was developed from the aluminium dope applied to French Nieuports. Used first as a primer under PC.12 in 1918 and then later in the ME reversed as a topcoat with the PC.12 as the primer.

For 98 gallons of V.84 - 260lbs of Nitro-cellulose syrup, 100 lbs of D32 aluminium powder (PC.12 was red iron oxide and carbon black), ?lbs of castor oil, 22 gallons of methyl ethyl ketone, 20 gallons of amyl acetate or butyl, 12 gallons of benzol and 12 gallons of alcohol. Would have gone off like rocket fuel if ignited.

Whether the formula changed since 1918 but the V.84 designation stayed the same I couldn't say.

Nick

[old thumper]

So it was aluminium after all - although Graham still desperately wants it to be pale blue! (joking) ;-)

Aluminium Covering V.84 goes back a long way and was developed from the aluminium dope applied to French Nieuports. Used first as a primer under PC.12 in 1918 and then later in the ME reversed as a topcoat with the PC.12 as the primer.

For 98 gallons of V.84 - 260lbs of Nitro-cellulose syrup, 100 lbs of D32 aluminium powder (PC.12 was red iron oxide and carbon black), ?lbs of castor oil, 22 gallons of methyl ethyl ketone, 20 gallons of amyl acetate or butyl, 12 gallons of benzol and 12 gallons of alcohol. Would have gone off like rocket fuel if ignited.

Whether the formula changed since 1918 but the V.84 designation stayed the same I couldn't say.

Nick

Thanks, so what number Humbrol or Alclad is that then?

Wasn't the old Aluminium dope colour a little like galvanised steel after it's gone dull?

[dogsbody]

This forum ROCKS! The information that is available here is immense.

Chris

[MilneBay]

Thanks, so what number Humbrol or Alclad is that then?

Wasn't the old Aluminium dope colour a little like galvanised steel after it's gone dull?

I'd use Tamiya AS12 in the spray can. You could also use it to do the Hurricane's wheel wells and u/c. AS12 really is a lovely paint as depending upon the number of light coats it can be varied from worn aluminium paint right through to a very good NMF.

[old thumper]

I'd use Tamiya AS12 in the spray can. You could also use it to do the Hurricane's wheel wells and u/c. AS12 really is a lovely paint as depending upon the number of light coats it can be varied from worn aluminium paint right through to a very good NMF.

Never used that before, I shall have a look for it next time I'm down the shop though thanks.

[Graham Boak]

So is that V.84 the main light colour we see, with two considerably darker colours? Two queries about that. Firstly, there only rarely appears to be any metallic gleam, and we are often seeing fresh Aluminium paint, not a long-faded example. Secondly, I can't see a very pale blue being either of the two darker colours we see on photographs.

Where is the V.84 in the blue, grey and purple as described by John Jackson? For that matter, what purple?

Or is it an undercoat of V.84 with a thin overspray of light blue and green in irregular streaks - in at least one example in spots.

Would I like it be be a light blue? If that makes more sense to me from the data and the photos.

[old thumper]

I thought the old fashioned aircraft aluminium dope was a dull greyish less reflective metallic shade, more foil backing than foil front surface. Black and white photos are a nightmare and one mans purple can be a another mans red or blue, thinking about this too much would blow a fuse in my brain.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

There is of course another explanation: Two in fact.

Firstly - assuming the base colour is an aluminium paint as per the V.84 ref, then if its over sprayed with a stripy wavy mottle - some of the overspray is going to dull down any metallic look somewhat. Painted aluminium can look pretty dull in BW pics anyway - take look at a Meteor F8 in HSS ( basically high gloss aluminium paint) - and they can look very flat and un-shiny!

Secondly - and perhaps less likely -just because the order says it "must" be V.84 doesn't mean it "was" V.84. It's not outside the bounds of probability that any pale coloured paint could have been mixed and used ( I mean mix enough white with anything and you get a pale colour! )

Cheers

Jonners

[Nick Millman]

Firstly, there only rarely appears to be any metallic gleam

Sorry, I'd have to disagree with that. The majority of images do appear to show an aluminium base which is consistent with the order.

The ambiguity is in what was meant by "followed by a light and irregular application of very pale blue and green"

Nick

[Graham Boak]

Nick. Short of sitting down together with a large pile of photos, and allocating each in turn to "metallic" and "non-metallic" I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the terms "rarely" and "a majority". Few of the ones I've seen look metallic, to me. Some clearly do.

Jon. I don't think that spraying short dashes (or dots) of a colour would have an overall dulling effect other than very close indeed to the edge of the spray. Assuming that it was sprayed: we've been informed by both Edgar and Mike Starmer that there was a distinct shortage of spray guns in the Middle East, early in the war. However, if there was one anywhere it would have been at Alexandria. As for the suggestion that it could have been any other light colour... yes, possibly, but I think that's where we started.

This is very reminiscent of discussions about prewar Lufthansa aircraft being silver or light grey. Or indeed, which light grey. Lufthansa had both silver and light greys in their official list of paints for Ju52s. In photos some look metallic, some don't. Photo captions differ in their opinion.