Burma Hurricanes in Desert camouflage

[badgeguy17]

Could it be possible gentlemen that the usage of the upper wing A type roundels appeared because the blue portion of the B type sun faded quicker than the red resulting in a recognition feature similar to a hinomaru as experienced on Mohawks with misidentification tragic consequences.

The reduced red portion on the A type roundel would somewhat solve this problem and perhaps acted upon at squadron level.

Wayne

[Graham Boak]

Possible certainly, and the blue did indeed fade more than the red, but only to a medium blue which would still be visible (if not more so), or so I'd have thought. It isn't clear when confusion between the reds was recognised but it does not seem to have been within this campaign. The removal of red centres wasn't common throughout 1942, if at all, as the later involvement of the Mohawk postdates this.

It seems likely that the white ring was to aid identification at a distance/quick glance rather than specifically because of the red - but we just don't know. It isn't something that was carried over into the following campaign.

67 Squadron had been fighting the Japanese for two months before 17 Sq,136 Sq and their Hurricanes arrived. Any change in markings would be expected to appear there - so perhaps we should be adding such roundels to the tops of Buffaloes too?

PS. In Eyes of the Phoenix there is a photo of a wrecked Yale of the Burma Volunteer Air Force with red/white/blue/yellow roundels on the upper wing, the yellow ring being decidedly thinner.

PPS There is also a photo of YB.D/BE19? with red/white/blue roundels, and apparently TLS? Shores mentions BE198 in the third delivery. This is listed in Air Britain as 261/28 Sq, soc 30/6/1944. BE194 and BE196 the only options.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Graham Boak

[mhaselden]

Available evidence on the Buffalos is scant but there is a photo of an airborne formation of Buffalos, reportedly taken during their final retreat to India in March 1942, which shows standard Type B roundels but with considerable fading to both colours.

The presence of Type A roundels on the upper surface of at least some Hurricanes is interesting. Perhaps an initial recognition that the red of the Type B roundel could be confusing? I can't think of any other good reasons for such a marking. Part of the challenge is the relative paucity of photos showing the upper wing roundels, and so it's hard to build up any body of evidence from which to draw conclusions over the timing or extent of the usage of such markings.

[Graham Boak]

The rapid attrition and replacement of the Hurricanes, in what became a mobile campaign, counts against getting any consistent position. It seems, from the limited information, that the first arrivals came with the B roundel, and were repainted at Mingadalon. After that the photos deteriorate in quality at least in their published form, but the number of A roundel aircraft can be expected to reduce as the campaign progressed. Arguably it takes no longer to paint two white rings than it would to add unit and individual codes, but were the latter applied to new aircraft after leaving Mingaladon anyway? It's a shame that the 136 Sq noticeboard doesn't quote individual codes, which might have been a guide. (I did read the first one as coded S, and the second as U...oh swear!) There doesn't seem to be any suggestion that the ferry numbers were retained, as might be assumed. Perhaps even these had been abandoned in the pressure of the time?

I disagree that confusion with the red is the solitary possibility for these white rings. In that case I would expect to see the removal of the red, as did happen considerably later. Adding a white ring is surely just accentuating the red of the centre? Hence by this theory, counter-productive. A second possibility is simply higher visibility overall, irregardless of colour. The history of camouflage and markings is full of clashes between the conflicting needs of low visibility and high recognition. It might be unkind - or perhaps not - to point to the presence of Allies who were unfamiliar with the Hurricane. A third could be simply that AOC Burma preferred the earlier roundel - but the lack of it on Buffaloes does count against this one.

I don't think there's any suggestion of it on Blenheims or Lysanders either - although finding photos of the upper wings of those has to be unlikely! Neither would wish to be highly visible anyway.

PS No sooner said than...there's a view of the upperwing of a Lysander in Eyes of The Phoenix - B roundels.

PPS. The tale of the underwing tanks is somewhat different in "Eyes..." than in BS, in that Stones' misadventures with underwing tanks, and arguments with AVM Stevenson. was spread over two days and combats, between which Stone insisted on taking the four outer guns out. However this was still in Z4726 coded 2.

PPPS. Photos in Cotton's "Hurricanes over Burma" confirm that squadron codes were not carried on all 17 Sq aircraft.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Graham Boak

[Nick Millman]

On the fading of blue and recognition issues see this, from a later date. This would have been as the second dry season air fighting drew to a close and the monsoon approached. The original request from Air HQ Bengal to Air HQ India was to apply yellow borders to the upper wing roundels on Mohawks and this was authorised on 29 April as a temporary measure with the understanding that they would have to be painted out if Air Ministry authority was not subsequently forthcoming. Ultimately from this exchange between Bengal, India and Air ministry (there are numerous back and forth suggestions) approval was given on 15 May for blue and white markings to be applied to Mohawks only. However there are also photographs of Hurricanes in the early blue and white markings where the existing 'European' roundels were modified in various ways to eliminate red. The description "complete British" is presumed to be red, white and blue roundels. For "Zero fighters" read Ki-43 Oscars.

[Nick Millman]

Further to post # 30 here are the authorisations for the blue and white markings to be universally applied, dated 24 Jun 1943.

This authorisation was followed on 28 Jun 1943 by a clarification from Air HQ Bengal that the existing blue part of the markings would be retained with a new white centre painted to half the diameter of the whole roundel. The fin flash was to be the existing size but half white and half blue with the white leading.

On 4 Jul 1943 Air HQ India issued an instruction to Air HQ Bengal with the authorised roundel and fin flash dimensions together with a request for trials regarding conspicuity and confirmation of the white portion sizes. At that point in time it was proposed that fighters should be considered to be 'medium' aircraft with roundel dimensions as follows:-

Fuselage = Blue 32 in White 9 in

Top Wing = Diameter of existing Blue with White 9 in centre

Bottom Wing = Blue 32 in White 9 in

Fin - 24 in x 24 in flash with Blue 15 in and White 9 in - originally with blue leading but that crossed out and a hand written correction as white leading.

I'll post copies of these additional docs and continue the chronology later.

Nick

[ClaudioN]

On the fading of blue and recognition issues see this, from a later date.

It is interesting to note that the proposal is "revert to having complete British (...) marking", where "complete" implies the presence of white.

Coastal Command reverted to 'A type' roundels for some time, late in 1940, so the idea was not unheard of.

Early in Burma one of the PR Hurricanes was shot down by another Hurricane after getting a Japanese fighter (one of theirs, one of ours), hence the yellow surrounds to the red/blue roundels on an entirely blue aircraft.

Claudio

[russ c]

Going back to desert scheme, what about the 30 and 261 Squadron Hurricanes that allegedly came from the Middle East and were reassembled from crates aboard HMS Indomitable still in desert scheme, to defend Ceylon in March `42. Any truth in that, or were the said Hurricanes new ones and just the Squadrons personnel from Middle East ?

Also was the desert scheme painted so that the Mid Stone took the place of Dark Green, if so then would a black and white photo of a desert scheme painted aircraft have the lighter colour shadow where the canopy was, that might help identify and aircraft so painted from a B & W photo.

Just a thought..

[Graham Boak]

261 Sq had had a hard time on Malta, and were sent to Ceylon to reform. With 30 Sq, they were issued with new aircraft (their old Mk.Is being in no fit condition) originally intended for Java. and flew them off Indomitable. Photos of 30, 261 and 258 squadrons in Bloody Shambles vol 2 were taken on ortho film, (red=black, yellow and Dark Earth = dark) and show the typical appearance of aircraft in Dark Green and Dark Earth taken on such film : i.e. two dark colours with little or no distinction.

I'e seen other photos of 30 Sq, but not (IIRC) any with the high contrast that suggests the Desert scheme. Officially the Desert Scheme was supposed to have Dark Earth around the cockpit, but this does appear to have been misinterpreted on several occasions. Yes, having the light colour around the cockpit would normally be a fairly safe indication of a Desert scheme, but not infallibly so.

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 3/31/2016 at 10:52 PM, Nick Millman said:

On the fading of blue and recognition issues see this, from a later date. This would have been as the second dry season air fighting drew to a close and the monsoon approached. The original request from Air HQ Bengal to Air HQ India was to apply yellow borders to the upper wing roundels on Mohawks and this was authorised on 29 April as a temporary measure with the understanding that they would have to be painted out if Air Ministry authority was not subsequently forthcoming. Ultimately from this exchange between Bengal, India and Air ministry (there are numerous back and forth suggestions) approval was given on 15 May for blue and white markings to be applied to Mohawks only. However there are also photographs of Hurricanes in the early blue and white markings where the existing 'European' roundels were modified in various ways to eliminate red. The description "complete British" is presumed to be red, white and blue roundels. For "Zero fighters" read Ki-43 Oscars.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 4/2/2016 at 8:55 AM, Graham Boak said:

I'e seen other photos of 30 Sq, but not (IIRC) any with the high contrast that suggests the Desert scheme. Officially the Desert Scheme was supposed to have Dark Earth around the cockpit, but this does appear to have been misinterpreted on several occasions. Yes, having the light colour around the cockpit would normally be a fairly safe indication of a Desert scheme, but not infallibly so.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Nick Millman]

Here are the two documents referred to in my post # 31. First the 28 Jun 1943 suggestion by 225 Gp HQ regarding the format of the blue and white roundels, together with the implication that squadrons had already been advised to follow them, then the preliminary 4 Jul 1943 Air HQ India response to Air HQ Bengal with proposed dimensions. Please bear in mind that this first response presumed the categorisation of fighters as 'medium' sized aircraft and also that at this stage white meant white! These two issues will become clearer in subsequent exchanges.

Hopefully the chronology provided by these documents will assist in the dating of photographs, etc. The exchanges were taking place during the 1943 'wet' monsoon season which limited air operations over Burma.

Nick

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for the above, valuable stuff which I have saved.

In this post I'd like to take us back to late 1941 and early 1942... and initially retread some familiar ground. I made a light-hearted reference above to the short-lived "Tropical Land Scheme" of Dark Green and Mid Stone, which briefly existed by error in AMO A.513 10th July 1941. This was hastily corrected in SY312/DIY, dated 3rd August 1941, to Dark Earth and Mid Stone, as per the previous scheme in AMO 926 of December 1940. It isn't clear that this correction was effective. It was followed by Air Ministry Postagram S.59966/11/F.O.6 dated 30/10/41 later in the year confirming DE/MS for overseas, but as late as November 1941 Hawkers are writing asking for confirmation that overseas Hurricanes should be painted DG/DE, which does suggest some lack of clarity. (Interestingly but irrelevant here, all fighter-bombers were to be in the Day Fighter Scheme and remain in the UK.)

Let us assume that both Hawker and Gloster production lines obeyed these instructions as issued, so adopted the DG/MS scheme on 11th July 1941 and dropped it on August 4th. It is unlikely to have been quite so tidy. However, that gives us 23 days of production, or something around 230 fighters. Which aircraft were these? From the Gloster line they were fairly early Mk.IIs, in the Z4500-Z4530 range. From the Hawker lines they were also Mk.IIBs in the high BDs to low BE range. Which are precisely the range of serials that we see in the 1942 Burma campaign. They were also on other Hurricanes elsewhere showing suspiciously high contrast between the upper surface colours, yet retaining the darker colour around the cockpit.

There was some six months between these aircraft coming off the line (if they did) in DG/MS, and their arrival in Burma, from the Middle East. Some of it will have been spent travelling but the majority in MUs either in the UK or in Egypt. In this period, there will have been ample opportunity for correction to the (then) ME approved scheme of DE and MS. Given that they already were partially painted in MS, the obvious thing to do would be to overpaint the Dark Green. So these aircraft could well have arrived in Burma in Desert Scheme, as the pilots said, but with reversed colours as shown in the photos. This would equally explain the apparent absence (or at least shortage) of photos showing aircraft in these blocks with the Desert colours in their official places, and how the areas thought to be Dark Earth on a TLS airframe could have faded quite so markedly quite so soon. If six months can be said to be soon.

I'd like to pickup on one point of Nick's: that the Oscar pilots objected to the Ki44s being in brown because the Allied fighters were in brown, whereas the Oscars were in green. This does suggest that the green on the Oscars was not an olive (my apologies if this is elementary to you, Nick) but also puts into question the identification of a green/brown disruptive camouflage on the Oscars in this period.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Graham Boak

[tonyot]

Here is a model that I made of an early 1943 era 136 `Woodpecker' Sqn Hurricane Mk.IIb which I`ve attached below to show how I envisage the B Type roundels on top of the wings would have weathered in the harsh weather conditions. It is easy to see how the red disc could stand out in a combat and be mistaken for a Japanese Himomaru.

The fuselage and fin markings were repainted from the A/A1 Type markings while the wing markings were original and untouched.

Cheers

Tony

Edited April 4, 2016 by tonyot

[mhaselden]

Hi Tony,

Once again, a simply lovely model. I'm a huge admirer of your work.

Having buttered you up a bit, any chance you could restore the pics you posted at #7? That photo of YB-L was superb!

Many thanks,
Mark

[Nick Millman]

I'd like to pickup on one point of Nick's: that the Oscar pilots objected to the Ki44s being in brown because the Allied fighters were in brown, whereas the Oscars were in green. This does suggest that the green on the Oscars was not an olive (my apologies if this is elementary to you, Nick) but also puts into question the identification of a green/brown disruptive camouflage on the Oscars in this period.

The 64th Sentai's Oscars were a mixture of plain green (with natural metal under surfaces) and two greens (with painted under surfaces) in a disruptive scheme. The plain green and lighter of the two greens was similar to Colorcoats ACJ05 'Nakajima Army Green' but apparently varied from aircraft to aircraft and even on the same aircraft. The darker green was approximately similar to FS 14056.

The brown and green Oscars came a little later and are more associated with the 50th Sentai in Burma.

Shall I continue with the Air HQ India documents or perhaps delete them from here and put them in a separate thread?

Nick

[Graham Boak]

It's not my thread, but I think they'd be more appropriate in a separate thread because of the date. They did follow quite naturally on from matters raised in this thread.

Eyes of the Phoenix p45 shows a 64th Sentai Oscar in a disruptive scheme and the caption is green/brown: hence my comment. I'm happy to do my Fujimi Oscar in your recommended colours.

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 4/5/2016 at 12:19 AM, Graham Boak said:

Thanks for the above, valuable stuff which I have saved.

In this post I'd like to take us back to late 1941 and early 1942... and initially retread some familiar ground. I made a light-hearted reference above to the short-lived "Tropical Land Scheme" of Dark Green and Mid Stone, which briefly existed by error in AMO A.513 10th July 1941. This was hastily corrected in SY312/DIY, dated 3rd August 1941, to Dark Earth and Mid Stone, as per the previous scheme in AMO 926 of December 1940. It isn't clear that this correction was effective. It was followed by Air Ministry Postagram S.59966/11/F.O.6 dated 30/10/41 later in the year confirming DE/MS for overseas, but as late as November 1941 Hawkers are writing asking for confirmation that overseas Hurricanes should be painted DG/DE, which does suggest some lack of clarity. (Interestingly but irrelevant here, all fighter-bombers were to be in the Day Fighter Scheme and remain in the UK.)

Let us assume that both Hawker and Gloster production lines obeyed these instructions as issued, so adopted the DG/MS scheme on 11th July 1941 and dropped it on August 4th. It is unlikely to have been quite so tidy. However, that gives us 23 days of production, or something around 230 fighters. Which aircraft were these? From the Gloster line they were fairly early Mk.IIs, in the Z4500-Z4530 range. From the Hawker lines they were also Mk.IIBs in the high BDs to low BE range. Which are precisely the range of serials that we see in the 1942 Burma campaign. They were also on other Hurricanes elsewhere showing suspiciously high contrast between the upper surface colours, yet retaining the darker colour around the cockpit.

There was some six months between these aircraft coming off the line (if they did) in DG/MS, and their arrival in Burma, from the Middle East. Some of it will have been spent travelling but the majority in MUs either in the UK or in Egypt. In this period, there will have been ample opportunity for correction to the (then) ME approved scheme of DE and MS. Given that they already were partially painted in MS, the obvious thing to do would be to overpaint the Dark Green. So these aircraft could well have arrived in Burma in Desert Scheme, as the pilots said, but with reversed colours as shown in the photos. This would equally explain the apparent absence (or at least shortage) of photos showing aircraft in these blocks with the Desert colours in their official places, and how the areas thought to be Dark Earth on a TLS airframe could have faded quite so markedly quite so soon. If six months can be said to be soon.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 4/5/2016 at 1:50 AM, Nick Millman said:

Shall I continue with the Air HQ India documents or perhaps delete them from here and put them in a separate thread?

Nick

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Nick Millman]

A separate thread would be better. It would be a real shame if all those documents got lost.

Thanks. I've started one with the follow-on docs and linked to this one rather than re-post everything!

Nick

[ClaudioN]

According to Michael Bowyer's "Fighting Colours", Hawker began painting Hurricanes in Middle-East colours from 22nd August 1941. Bowyer had access to Hawker files and he also took notes based on his own eye-witness observations of RAF aircraft in Britain. He goes into quite a lot of detail when discussing the Hurricane. Given the level of detail and accuracy of his accounts, If there were any Hurricanes in Dark Green/Middle-Stone, he would have picked up on it.

In his books Michael Bowyer provides lots of interesting information and details, particularly about aircraft flying in the UK that in most cases he had seen with his eyes. However, I doubt he would have been able to witness everything and all.

IMHO, the month or so elapsed between the MS/DG error and the MS/DE correction suggests that the amendment was made after a few odd-coloured Hurricanes did appear. The alternative explanation that it resulted from some careful 'a posteriori' proofreading of original AMO text is something I find harder to figure out.

I like Graham's conjecture because it pieces together a number of hints into a credible hypothesis. That requires to be tested, of course.

Claudio

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 4/6/2016 at 5:26 AM, ClaudioN said:

In his books Michael Bowyer provides lots of interesting information and details, particularly about aircraft flying in the UK that in most cases he had seen with his eyes. However, I doubt he would have been able to witness everything and all.

IMHO, the month or so elapsed between the MS/DG error and the MS/DE correction suggests that the amendment was made after a few odd-coloured Hurricanes did appear. The alternative explanation that it resulted from some careful 'a posteriori' proofreading of original AMO text is something I find harder to figure out.

I like Graham's conjecture because it pieces together a number of hints into a credible hypothesis. That requires to be tested, of course.

Claudio

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Graham Boak]

I entirely fail to understand why it is ridiculous to assume that aircraft will have been painted according to the instructions from the appropriate authority. Quite the contrary.

There is a legitimate question which I don't think has been bottomed yet. Would the company act on receipt of an AMO, source Air Ministry, or would they wait for more specific instruction from their superior authority, the Ministry of Aircraft Production? One would reasonably expect the two authorities to act in agreement, but not necessarily simultaneously. However, in other matters concerning a change of colour schemes (eg Sky undersides, Day Fighter Scheme) it has always been assumed that the factories acted on issue (or at least known receipt) of the AMO. I don't see why they should have been any different here.

To Mark's specific comments. 41 Group was not in charge of the painting of aircraft in the factories. Its job was to receive aircraft from the factories and then apply such changes as were needed to prepare them for service (for example armament, radios, tropicalisation). As such they could indeed legitimately query any oddities in the painting of aircraft delivered from the factories. However, any such aircraft will continue to have been delivered regardless of any exchange of correspondence "behind the scenes", until the matter was clarified by the authority concerned. The 41 Gp letter shows the path by which the matter was queried, it does not give us any date for any change. It does not give us any limit to the production of any particular scheme. That took the arrival of the answer. Therefore my suggestion for the possible duration of any production remains valid.

Whether we assume that 41 Gp has queried the matter on their receipt of the AMO, or after of the arrival of aircraft in the authorised DG/ME, then the result will be the same. These aircraft will take some time to process, and unless a few modified aircraft were rapidly despatched overseas then we can expect to see all these aircraft repainted DE/MS as I have suggested above.

It is worth noting that AMO 513 was issued after the campaigns in the Middle East which resulted in the only combat area being the Western Desert. There was no longer any strong demand from overseas for aircraft in any other scheme. (This does exclude very small numbers to replace losses in the one squadron in Western Africa.) But following both the original issue and the correction to AMO513, it is clear that aircraft continued to appear in Java, Singapore, Burma and Ceylon in the low contrast typical of Temperate Land, despite being produced after the claimed standardising on the high contrast DE/MS. Those that do show a high contrast fall into this band of aircraft produced during the validity of the original AMO 513. The only aircraft specifically observed to be in DE/MS are those that arrived in Burma in the first batches from Egypt, which had been repainting aircraft in DE/MS since before the formation of the first Hurricane unit in the Western Desert. It would be evidently sensible to switch production to TLS for the Far East after 7th December, but most of the aircraft concerned had been built well before this. Part of the answer may lie in the squadrons' intended destination of Russia.

The November Hawker letter can be interpreted as querying the production split between overseas and home, rather than the colours concerned. Or possibly both. Or actually querying neither, just wanting to see the whole thing properly authorised on paper.

The claim that all overseas Hurricanes were delivered to the Far East in DE/MS to the correct pattern is not supported by the evidence. I have made a hypothesis addressing the matter of photographs which show a significant number of Hurricanes in a high contrast scheme with the darker area around the cockpit, in a way that obeys all the known official documentation. The lack of any documentation explaining why most Hurricanes appear in Burma/Ceylon/Java/Singapore with TLS is outstanding.

[Nick Millman]

Just to note FWIW that typically the Dark Earth paints probably faded more rapidly than the Dark Green paints. In January 1943 RAE conducted various weathering and accelerated ageing tests with controlled cycles at RAE, the Paint Research Station at Teddington and ICI at Slough. They tested the temperate land scheme paints in both cellulose and synthetic resin forms with outdoor exposure on a roof for 6 months as well as under accelerated ageing processes.

The results of the exposure test were:- Sky = extensive chalking; Dark Earth = faded; Dark Green = no apparent difference. The visual appearance of this deterioration on an aircraft would have been a lighter, more greyish looking Sky and a lighter, sandier Dark Earth with more contrast between the reflectivity of the Dark Earth and Dark Green paints. The Sky paint, being underneath the aircraft could be expected to chalk more slowly than in the roof exposure test but in tropical conditions the overall deterioration could be expected to be more rapid and severe anyway.

In a desert scheme the deterioration could be expected to bring the paints closer together, e.g. less contrast as the Dark Earth faded towards the Mid Stone appearance and one of the aspects of the photos of 17 Sqn aircraft in Burma is the apparent low contrast and lightness of both colours. That could just be the effect of dust though.

Nick

[Graham Boak]

Your comments on fading, here and elsewhere, raise a good point about the six months between build and appearance in theatre, but would imply that all the Hurricanes in Burma and Ceylon should appear to be in Desert scheme or two light colours. This does not seem to have been the case. As always, more photos would help, perhaps to make clear how the production lines treated DE/MS. Given Hawkers prolific use of posed photos of new aircraft this may be possible, although the peak of such would seem to have been earlier in 1941.

The quicker fading of DE has been used to explain the similar high contrast shown on aircraft in the Middle East such as the Wellesley, which had otherwise been suggested as Light Earth, or even DE/LE. The problem with the latter is that the darker colour is where the Dark Green had been/remained. Also, it seems that DE/MS was favoured for the Western Desert, which is not where the Wellesleys were employed. However, we are presumably dealing with longer exposures than six months. It does however raise questions about the length of service of aircraft in TLS in the UK.

The no apparent difference due to fading in Dark Green is something of a surprise, It doesn't seem to have been reflected in wider use, where either a move towards the brown, as you have suggested elsewhere, or a brighter green (as in the colour film of Lancasters), has been noted.