Graham Boak Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Z4258 lost at sea en-route to the ME 5.41 260 Sq also carried just the individual code but thicker and mounted higher - based on one photo. There was a third Tac. recce unit - I'll dig it out later. Perhaps even 260 Sq? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 A Hurricane pic from the IWM, which is not in North Africa. Take notice of the light coloured wing leading edges and under-nose area. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205230019 Chris Chris, That is well-known VY-R, No 85 Sq. flown by sgt. Lewis. Undersides are repainted in Sky. Vedran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 451 Sqn flew Hurris on Tac R duties with neither unit codes nor individual aircraft letters. Examples are Z4641 with name "Olive II" under port cockpit sill, Z4771 and V7353, the latter as flown by Wg Cdr Morley-Mower, DFC, AFC and illustrated on the rear cover of his book 'Messerchmitt Roulette'. It is in the desert scheme with what is presumed to be meant to represent Sky undersurfaces. The book's description of Tac R ops in the desert suggests several speculative possibilities for the leading edge scheme. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Z4258 lost at sea en-route to the ME 5.41 260 Sq also carried just the individual code but thicker and mounted higher - based on one photo. There was a third Tac. recce unit - I'll dig it out later. Perhaps even 260 Sq? Z4238, from frame #53. Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Z4238 73, then 451. soc 28.8.44 237 Sq was the third TR unit. 73 Sq carried the codes TP, 260 Sq ME, 94 Sq FZ. There are photos of aircraft from various units (eg 33, 260) without any codes but with rapid replacements needed at times this isn't too surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Hi Occa if you scroll down the page there is a link to a page of stills from the film, lo res but useable ...... HTH T Thanks Troy for pointing me to that !! Cheers, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Another transpose: K is Z4373, not Z4737 (from frame #126). Given the setting, could these be 73 Sqn., around Tobruk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Z4373 94 Sq, to R.Eg.AF 1.2.42 73 do seem to be fairly always seen carrying TP. I suggest the film is more likely to have taken nearer the Nile Delta, using a squadron resting from operations. We've had a couple of hints at 94 Sq., and this was operational for two months from October, and then re-equipping with P-40s in the new year. So 94 Sq could be a strong candidate - or of course the film could have been taken at an MU with spare Hurricanes, some of which were ex-94. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detail is everything Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Here is a model that I did of `K' some time ago,.......still not fully sure of the colour of the `Spaghetti camouflage' but it was my interpretation at the time! Here is one that I did depicting a 73 Sqn Hurri which was shot down before the full camouflage could be added to the nose and leading edges; So was the base coat silver or light sand or were there two different styles? I also think that this style of camouflage originated with the Fleet Air Arm on the Fulmar`s from HMS Illustrious and that the RAF copied it for their own Hurricanes. Intention,....well some have said that it was to look like Italian aircraft while at low level,...which they probably did,....but I think that the idea of the scheme was to break up the outline of the aircraft as it approached its target,......the Fulmar was not the fastest of fighters and took some time to catch up to the SM.79 bomber,.....so anything to keep it hidden from view for longer was worth a try. Tony Tony Nice models V7816 K has been the subject of a previous post http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27213-hurricane-mk-i-trop-v7816-k-of-803-nas/where advice on the colour of the code 'K' was asked for. Interestingly another modeller's interpretation of the reference photo (see https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7A5-k3Svfh4C&pg=PT42&lpg=PT42&dq=hurricane+v7816+k&source=bl&ots=NagSKXoR3W&sig=VfHoyD58qf11k64IVrJejbje0hY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT2q3B2prLAhUM6xQKHUdbADUQ6AEIKjAC#v=onepage&q=hurricane%20v7816%20k&f=false) was the same as you, i.e. Medium Sea Grey (see the end of previous post). The reference photo was taken using orthochromatic film, so the chrome yellow outermost roundel ring appears black. The code 'K' is barely discernible against the Dark Earth camouflage, but seems not as dark as the yellow. If the code was Medium Sea Grey, surely it wouldn't be effected by the film emulsion and would appear as a pale grey? I think, looking at the adjacent roundel, that the code might be roundel blue, rather than red. Also, the "spaghetti" camouflage base colour on the nose and wing leading edges, seems to be too dull to have a silver base colour, except perhaps around the wing root area, where there may be some wear. The undersurface colour seems dark (even accounting for the deep shadow) so is it likely to be Azure or Light Mediteranian Blue, rather than Light Blue?. The base colour of the "spaghetti" camouflage base colour on the nose could be pale sand or pale blue? What do people think. The instigator of the previous post, didn't really get an answer re the colour of the code letter. Edited February 28, 2016 by detail is everything 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) As I said,......I make my model of V7816/K some time ago,......when hardly anything was known about this unit and I threw my hat into the ring with the limited info available. Since then I have researched the RNFS more and I do agree that the code letter should be blue,......there is actually a colour photo of a Hurricane from this unit in the Haynes Manual on the Hurricane which confirms this. I am thinking of repainting this model when I can get my head around the so called `Spaghetti Scheme',...... which will include repainting the code blue. My thinking of the nose and leading edges of this particular aircraft is that they are probably light blue,....but who knows for sure eh? Cheers Tony PS- As for the undersides,.....I used Aeromaster Azure Blue and I stick by that,......most of the underside area in the photo of the real thing is in shadow and thus jut looks darker. There is a section out of shadow on the forward ventral strake and this is much more in keeping with a lighter blue underside. Darker Blue undersides were more common on later aircraft circa 1942 onwards. Edited February 28, 2016 by tonyot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) I suggest the film is more likely to have taken nearer the Nile Delta, using a squadron resting from operations. Graham, I think you are right. So much for the heroic war reporter... filming is probably just that bit easier behind the front line. Summarising, Z4373 with 94 Sqn. (or ex-94 Sqn.) in TLS, Z4737 with 94 Sqn. (or ex-94 Sqn.) and Z4773 with 73 Sqn. (or ex-73 Sqn.). The latter two show a much lighter grey shade where the dark green would be. I take this to be Mid Stone? Interestingly, this may suggest "Middle East spaghetti" were retained, at least for some time, after application of the desert scheme. Any thoughts? Tony, back into 1940, when 803 Sqn. flew Skuas in the Med, code letters on the fin were in Section colours, i.e., A-green (or black?), F-blue, K-yellow, P-red. The use seemingly carried on to Hurricanes, since Hurricane 'A' in the background, same picture as 'K', has a darker code letter. I have seen the picture of 'K' in a few different places; sometimes I'd say the code it's still yellow, as on Skuas, sometimes I might agree about blue. All the best Claudio Edited February 28, 2016 by ClaudioN 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Yes: the light leading edges were seen on both TLS and the desert scheme. However, the Desert Scheme was not a later invention: it was seen from almost the earliest days of Hurricanes in the theatre, on the first squadron to form and thus preceding the light leading edges. It seems that aircraft were repainted in the Alexandrian MU, but continued to arrive in TLS and some were sent in to service as they were. IIRC, the history of 73 squadron tells how some of the aircraft flown across from Takoradi were diverted to the front line before reaching the Nile Delta. Earlier I was looking for the book Hurricanes Over Tobruk to refresh myself on this, but it wasn't where I looked first, and then I was distracted. (I went to do some modelling,,,honest.) However there is a photo in Shores vol.1 p.155 showing a 73 Sq aircraft in unmodified TLS. Earlier in the thread there was a quote from John Jackson, of 3 RAAF, describing his first experience of these colours. The photo that appeared with this text shows a desert camouflaged Hurricane (Shores' Mediterranean Air War vol 1 p.117.) A few pages on there's a Hurricane of 3 RAAF in TLS (p.126). This is January 1941 - several months later there are still Hurricanes in theatre with TLS alongside those in Desert. With and without light leading edges. Whatever the theatre painting instructions were, they were not universally applied for some months, and by then the Desert scheme with red spinners became the norm. OK - next question is when were the red spinners adopted? What we don't see is light leading edges with red spinners. Edited March 4, 2016 by Graham Boak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 I had interpreted 'K' as V4375. Shame it's so hard to see - every still seems to show a potential different combination of serial numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Found a new image here: http://biltongbru.wixsite.com/ww2-saaf-heritage Scroll down to Image # 60: http://saafww2pilots2.yolasite.com/angus-farrall-photographs.php Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Hugo Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 On 2016/12/08 at 3:16 AM, dogsbody said: Found a new image here: http://biltongbru.wixsite.com/ww2-saaf-heritage Scroll down to Image # 60: http://saafww2pilots2.yolasite.com/angus-farrall-photographs.php Chris Some more pics See that there is an instruction to use Shell 100 on the wing root https://saafww2pilots3.yolasite.com/johnny-eloff-photographs.php Possibly the same aircraft/pilot in a newspaper clipping https://saafww2pilots3.yolasite.com/attie-botha-photographs.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari Lumppio Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Charlie Hugo said: ... See that there is an instruction to use Shell 100 on the wing root ... Hello! Shell 100 is so called straight oil and the instruction text may be indication of a recent motor change and resulting break-in period. Shell 100 oil Technical Data Sheet: http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwitloOhmq3YAhXBQZoKHS3rArUQFggtMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.multiforceegypt.com%2Fmedia%2F76c200c0-4fd8-44e9-a383-93c7ee517c82%2F1559951856%2FPiston%2FGPCDOC_GTDS_AeroShell_Oil_100_(en)_TDS_v1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1sgnG5iTsHingmeTOxSp9o Note Shell W120 oil is recommended for warmer climates (see: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/aeroshelloils.php ) Back when I was maintaining a local aeroclub plane AeroShell W100 oil was used in the new (remanufactured) Lycoming O-360 during the break-in period (IIRC 50 flying hours). This tidbit had nothing to do with the spaghetti colours,but may still be of interest? Cheers, Kari 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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