Interesting Hurricane Paint Job

[Malta]

Apologies if picture has been posted before.

[Graham Boak]

I don't think the picture has been posted before, or at least not recently, but it is a fine example of the so-called "spaghetti" scheme, on what looks to be a temperate scheme Hurricane. The base colour was supposedly Aluminium, but here as in others, it doesn't have a shiny metallic appearance and a light blue could be more appropriate. It is pretty clear that it is lighter than the Middle Stone which has been suggested in the past. The darker colours in the mottle are probably the uppersurface colours, but other suggestions have been made. There is a recent thread on 1/144 Sweet Tropical Hurricanes on which a little more is said - I'd put in a link but can't find it in the Search on the site. However much more has been said in older threads. (EDIT: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234996261-sweet-1144-hurricane-tropicals/)

Have you any other information about the photo - which unit?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Graham Boak

[Malta]

Its from Malta, sorry don't know the Squadron.

[Graham Boak]

It's certainly a rare example if from Malta, because Malta was normally supplied from Gibraltar and this scheme was painted on aircraft at Alexandria.

[AWFK10]

Judging by the background (or lack of it), the photo doesn't seem likely to have been taken on Malta - it looks more like the Western Desert. The scheme seems to extend well onto the undersurface of the wing.

[JWM]

Glad to see this photo! - some time ago on this forum there was a discussion if this kind of painting is just a fake - the "spaghetti -like" structures were supposed to be shadows of the masking net. This photo clarify in my oppinion the real existance of at least one Hurri Mk I painted this way...I've seen somwhere this photo earlier but was not able to find it again during this past discussion. Therfore now I am so glad to see it here!....

Best regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

[Graham Boak]

There are lots and lots of Hurricanes painted this way, with quite a lot of photos. The subject keeps cropping up on this forum, so a search should bring plenty of examples. It was seen in Greece, in Tobruk, on Fulmars, and on FR squadrons - just examples from the top of my head. In the 60s it was thought that this was an FR scheme, but since then more photos have arisen.

Try this link - although there are others. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234922498-hurricane-spaghetti-scheme-i-said-it-was-blue/?hl=%2Bspaghetti+%2Bscheme

Edited February 23, 2016 by Graham Boak

[Rick Brown]

Jeez, looks like most of my spray jobs, even when not intended.

Great shot, love to know more about it. Was it just Hurricanes?

Rick.

[dogsbody]

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Graham Boak]

As far as the RAF is concerned, this was only on Hurricanes, which were the main (if not only) RAF fighter in the ME at this time. The Gladiators were disappearing and the P-40s hadn't arrived. However it was also seen on Fulmars of the Mediterranean Fleet (See Stuart Lloyd's book on early war FAA camouflage). I don't think it would have worked on thin-wing Gladiators anyway.

The lower picture (taken at Argos, judging from the olive plantation) does seem to have Aluminium on the spinner and nose. Both are applied to aircraft in the Desert scheme, which was largely replacing the temperate scheme at this time.

[dogsbody]

Just because.

From Monografie Lodnicze No. 51:

 

 

From Monografie Lodnicze No. 54:

 

 

From Profile Publications No. 24:

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Hornet133]

3 Sqn RAAF not SAAF...and AK-G is the example that JWM referred to which is believed to be a misinterpretation of a photo where it was under a camo net.

Re P3822 (that is the full serial, the P being painted over at some stage) it was named 'Pamela' and was the aircraft of F/Lt Blake Pelly. The 2 offical RAAF photos of it were taken at Benina on 26 February 1941.

On the original prints that I have one can see that the additional light areas on the nose are not the same as the lower Sky colour. I consider that the extra colours were Sky Blue. The colour extends back under the wing leading edge and also the same distance above.

Roundels were standard RAF types (not with Orange SAAF centres as on the drawing in the Polish book) and it carries an aerial wire seen in my prints. Attached is a drawing that I did of this airframe as part of a larger article on 3 Sqn Hurricanes many years ago for the IPMS (NSW) publication.

This scheme was very common in the M.E at the time. I have seen examples from just about every Fighter unit that operated ttere at the time.

Steve Mackenzie

Edited February 24, 2016 by Hornet133

[Malta]

Correction ............ Its not Malta, it is from Burg - El - Arab, in July 1941

[Nick Millman]

Personally and FWIW, looking closely at the spinner, I think it is aluminium (silver) paint again as suggested in some of the other photos.

Nick

[tonyot]

Apologies if picture has been posted before.

I have a copy of this photo along with others taken at the same time in the Western Desert,...it is most definitely not Malta! Note how it still wears Dark Green and Dark Earth camouflage on the uppers (no Mid Stone added to cover the Dark Green) and in this case it does look as if silver was the base coat applied onto the nose and leading edges.

Tony

[iang]

In addition to these RAF examples, there were Fleet Air Arm Hurricanes finished in similar schemes too. I have photos of W9354 and V7816/K. These two are marked quite differently in terms of the detail of the pattern. W9354 is a tight scheme with thin lines, whereas V7816/K carries a more open pattern with wider lines. It also carries 'Royal Navy' above the serial number.

Edited February 24, 2016 by iang

[tonyot]

Here is a model that I did of `K' some time ago,.......still not fully sure of the colour of the `Spaghetti camouflage' but it was my interpretation at the time!

Here is one that I did depicting a 73 Sqn Hurri which was shot down before the full camouflage could be added to the nose and leading edges;

So was the base coat silver or light sand or were there two different styles?

I also think that this style of camouflage originated with the Fleet Air Arm on the Fulmar`s from HMS Illustrious and that the RAF copied it for their own Hurricanes. Intention,....well some have said that it was to look like Italian aircraft while at low level,...which they probably did,....but I think that the idea of the scheme was to break up the outline of the aircraft as it approached its target,......the Fulmar was not the fastest of fighters and took some time to catch up to the SM.79 bomber,.....so anything to keep it hidden from view for longer was worth a try.

Tony

Edited February 24, 2016 by tonyot

[Graham Boak]

I don't think that there ever were any sand coloured examples: this is just something conjured up by artists following the line that it was somehow "Italian". If we find a photo where the leading edge is darker than the underside that'll make a difference. For that matter, I don't know of any contemporary account that describes it as "spaghetti" though this is too well set in the modellers' world to avoid, particularly as we lack any other description equally succinct! Neither am I convinced that Aluminium was always used, as many (if not most, although the quality of the photographs will be affecting that) lack the shininess usually seen from metallic paints. It would also seem to present the risk of spoiling the camouflage by glint, making the aircraft more visible rather than less. The likeliest alternative would seem to be Sky Blue, as there's little else as pale.

[dragonlanceHR]

Why not both Aluminium and Sky Blue?

Graham, didn't you post an late 1940 memo describing light green and pale blue mottle over Aluminium (V.84)?

And from 1941 we have the description and a b/w photo by SqLdr John Jackson of "mottled blue, grey and purple".

Can the "grey" be dulled Aluminium paint?

Vedran

The milimeter brigade

[Nick Millman]

Neither am I convinced that Aluminium was always used, as many (if not most, although the quality of the photographs will be affecting that) lack the shininess usually seen from metallic paints. It would also seem to present the risk of spoiling the camouflage by glint, making the aircraft more visible rather than less.

The aluminium paint of the time was not as shiny as modern paint - thus the old Woolworths "greyish" silver paints and the German WWI 'silbergrau'. It was an age before Alclad and buffables. Even by the 1950s the aluminium pigment then available could not be as finely milled, hence the 'High Speed Silver' finishing process. This, from 1951, in a DDOR Air Engineering discussion about the problems of leading edge paint erosion:-

But without knowing the intended purpose it is difficult to rationalise the possible colours applied to the Hurricanes.

You might not be convinced that the paint in the photo is aluminium but I am, exactly similar to the paint on Tony's second model!

Nick

[Graham Boak]

Vedran: Yes, I did post (although I don't think it was original to me) the memo about Aluminium V84. I believe that some of the photos show just that, but not that they all do.

If you are suggesting that the base colour is Aluminium and one of the mottle colours is Sky Blue, then I don't think that combination would show the contrast that we see. I think that the likeliest mottle colours would be Dark Green and Dark Earth, or possibly Middle Stone and Dark Earth, because they were the colours in normal use for camouflage, and with anything else the question is "Why?". I'm aware that Jackson doesn't confirm this, but eyewitness accounts are not always as precise and accurate as we would like.

Nick: I admire your (and Tony's) confidence, I just don't see that myself. The Aluminium in use prewar - for example the underside of Hurricanes - still exhibited a metallic sheen and did not look quite so, well, bland, as the base colour does in this and other photos. Or indeed, quite so light. The fact that some do show this metallic effect does require further explanation for those that do not. I would also point out, as an ex-aerodynamicist, that the last place you want a more-coarsely grained paint is on the leading edge of the wing. Given the conditions of the war in the Desert, this may seem irrelevant, but every little helps - or hinders.

As for use: the effect is to reduce the contrast of the aircraft against the sky head-on. They become less visible when approaching the enemy. This is both valuable and obvious as an intended purpose, so much so that it would be very odd had it only appeared by chance from some other intention. Serendipitous in the extreme. That it initially appears on fighters with an air-to-air role, but not on other aircraft with air-to-ground roles, may back this up.

What also is unknown is why it stopped being used. Perhaps just because it was time-consuming, and higher authority (or some new guy) decided it wasn't worth the effort. I suspect that was also because later fighters had thinner wings than Hurricanes (or Fulmars), so the beneficial effect would be less. Perhaps also because the adoption of a red spinner on DAF fighters for head-on identification rather defeated the entire purpose of it.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Graham Boak

[Nick Millman]

Nick: I admire your (and Tony's) confidence, I just don't see that myself. The Aluminium in use prewar - for example the underside of Hurricanes - still exhibited a metallic sheen and did not look quite so, well, bland, as the base colour does in this and other photos. Or indeed, quite so light.

Light and reflection are not constants so an aluminium (or any other coloured finish) will not necessarily look the same from photo to photo. It is the spinner that I think gives it away, although some reflection can be seen around the wing root too.

I shouldn't like to speculate on the purpose given that the mimicking of Italian fighters to discourage ground fire has now been more or less discredited.

Nick

[Nick Millman]

I would also point out, as an ex-aerodynamicist, that the last place you want a more-coarsely grained paint is on the leading edge of the wing. Given the conditions of the war in the Desert, this may seem irrelevant, but every little helps - or hinders.

The document that I extracted from has a lot to say about smooth paint and leading edge erosion - of the aluminium paint - and the problems caused by that post war with the new fast jets. The Desert War was ten years earlier but the RAF were still applying "more-coarsely grained paint" to the leading edges in 1951!

The fact remains that some photos of those Hurricanes do appear to show a metallic paint.

Nick

[dogsbody]

Some images from here: http://biltongbru.wix.com/ww2-saaf-heritage

Image #34: http://saafww2pilots3.yolasite.com/attie-botha-photographs.php

Heading photo and first image: http://saafww2pilots3.yolasite.com/johnny-eloff-photographs.php

Image # 34: http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.com/schoeman-photographs--1-sqdn-north-africa.php

Chris

[Vanroon]

This discussion rang a bell, so ...

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234922498-hurricane-spaghetti-scheme-i-said-it-was-blue/?hl=%2Bspaghetti+%2Bhurricane

G