What's the best kit for an F86A Sabre (1/72)?

[John R]

I would like a prototype F86 (i.e. XP-86) to go into my collection of early jets. What is the best kit to use as a starting point?

John

Edited February 6, 2016 by John R

[Tony Edmundson]

What scale ?

If 1/48, then Kiwi Resin has a conversion for the Hasegawa/Academy kit.

for 1/72 then Kiwi Resin had a conversion for the Airfix kit only.

I did my own surgery on a Matchbox F-86A kit;

and I did a version of the F-86A using a HobbyCraft Sabre 6;

Cheers, Tony

Edited February 5, 2016 by Tony Edmundson

[Tony Edmundson]

Fine Scale Modeler July 2000, Paul Boyer converts a 1/72 Fujimi Sabre to a F-86A model.

You indicated prototype, which had a couple differences from a F-86A, notably the windscreen is a curved shape, not a Vee shape.

I see Photobucket is down for maintenance again, grrrr.

Cheers, Tony

Edited February 5, 2016 by Tony Edmundson

[72modeler]

John R,

The XF-86 prototype, s/n 55-59597 is very similar to an F-86A, as described in NAA 1934-1998, volume 1, by Norm Avery. There was no armament fitted and no blast troughs for the guns. In addition,the windscreen center panel was slightly curved, not flat- probably because there was no gunsight fitted, so no need for an optically flat section. I have seen photos of it in natural metal finish with a painted or dark-colored fiberglass nosecap, as well as in an overall light gloss grey finish, including the nosecap. Neither scheme appears to have a painted matte antiglare panel.

In 1/72 scale, the only dedicated kit for an F-86A is the Matchbox kit, as pointed out, but it is porobably only useful for the aft fuselage section, to include the speedbrakes and the non all-flying stabilizers with their smaller actuator fairings. If you have a spare Matchbox kit, you could graft the rear fuselage onto any Fujimi or Hobbycraft/Academy F-86E/F, but I have seen the fairings on the F-86E/F kits sanded back to the size and shape of the A without a lot of effort; reshape the fairing in front of the windscreen to match a slightly curved center panel you could make from modifying the kit windscreen, and fill in the blast troughs for the guns; I can't tell from the photos I have whether or not the panels for the ammo access doors need to be filled in, but they appear to be present.

The biggest issue will be making the standard chord/span slatted wing, as all of the Fujimi kits have either a 6-3 non-slatted wing, or the F-40 extended span wing with 6-3 chord and slats. The Hobbycraft/Academy kits have slats, but they are on a 6-3 wing! You could do this by modifying either of the wings described, but the slots and actuator arms would be a real pain in the wazoo! You could make life easier by removing the extra chord ofthe 6-3 wing by drawing a line, span-wise that is a scale 6" back at the root to 3" back at the tip, re-shaping the leading edge, and scribing in the slats- don't forget tio remove the wing fence if you go that route! If you want to do the slatted wing with the slats deployed, then you could attach the slat bays and slats from a Hobbycraft/Academy F-86E (These kits came with positionable slats) after removing the 6-3 section from the donor kit. In addition, IIRC, Cutting Edge made a conversion set,CE-71015, which had slats and other parts to do an early E or A,as well as a set of slats by themselves, CE-72016; they are long OOP, however.

Don't forget to rescribe the stabilizers in any kit that you use for a donor, as the prototype, A's, and early E's did not have the all-flying stabs, but used conventional elevators; I think the chord and span of the stabilizers was the same for all, regardless.

There aree some other minor differences, such as the location of the aft nav lights, but you can get those from photos.I have attached a link to an article I found that does describes the A features, many of which would be the same for the prototype. If you do the speedbrakes deployed, IIRC, there is an issue with the droop and hinge fairingsof the speedbrakes on some of the kits, so be aware of that- sorry, but I can't remember offhand which kits, but I do remember reading about the problem in some reviews.

I hope this will help get you started; I bet a Sabre devotee can chime in with better information.

Mike

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=184207&st=20

[Tony Edmundson]

In my Matchbox F-86A improvement, I employed a Heller Sabre as a donor kit for the cockpit, seat, canopy, speed brake wells, landing gear and doors. The windscreen is a copy i made of the Falcon vac F-86A unit. The early type nose wheel is from the Airfix P-80. The wings were filed down where the slat wells are, and copies of the Cutting Edge slats were installed.

In my HobbyCraft Sabre conversion, I cut out the 6-3 slice out of the wing to shorten the chord. Since the speedbrakes of the Fujimi/HobbyCraft/Academy Sabres are the wrong shape, they were glued closed. I built up the inside of the aft section with scrap plastic, marked the outside of the large elevator actuator fairing, and started grinding until I had the shape close. Wingtips were notched to accept scrap clear sprue for the nav lights. Windscreen is done with a shaped piece of acetate glued on the front and faired in.

Which one is less work, well if I would've left the speedbrakes closed on the Matchbox kit, that would've been the easier conversion, but I wanted everything open, the abysmal wheel wells were left as is(I don't photograph the underside of my aircraft) The Fuj/Hobb/Acad Sabre is the more nicer mold, but requires a wing mod even if you have the Scobie-Do wing or a Cutting Edge set.

It's your choice, those are the ways I employed. HTH

Cheers, Tony

[Antoine]

Interesting.

And what decals do we have on the aftermarket, for an A?

A quick search at Hannants gave nothing...

[Tony Edmundson]

MicroScale had some, ModelDecal #22 has a F-86A, The old ESCI sheet has some, Euro Decal has a Montana ANG 'A'.

Admittedly, there isn't much for the 'A'.

Cheers, Tony

Edited February 6, 2016 by Tony Edmundson

[Wez]

There's also an old Modeldecal sheet (IIRC No.15), which has very attractive markings for an RAF Shepherds Grove based 116FIS circa. 1951.

I always planned to go down the Matchbox kit route using Heller parts to provide some detail.

One thought which just occurred to me is cutting the rear fuselage off of an Academy F-86E and the Matchbox F-86A at the transport joint and then mating the Matchbox rear fuselage to Academy forward fuselage, I don't know what the respective cross-sections are like, you'd still have to change the windscreen

As for drawings, I think there's a plan for the F-86A amongst the Nexus (e.g. the old Scale Models) collection, I can't vouch for their accuracy.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Wez

[John R]

Thank you for all that. Another question - Are there any reliable drawings available?

[Tony Edmundson]

One thought which just occurred to me is cutting the rear fuselage off of an Academy F-86E and the Matchbox F-86A at the transport joint and then mating the Matchbox rear fuselage to Academy forward fuselage, I don't know what the respective cross-sections are like, you'd still have to change the windscreen

I tried that before my speedbrake well transplant, the cross sections are not even close. Even the Heller Sabre didn't fit.

Cheers, Tony

[72modeler]

How about a massive write-in campaign to either Platz or Meng Models for a state of the art F-86A/E/F-10? A little clever engineering and some slide molds and all three versions could be catered for; split the rear fuselage at the break point for the A and early E, with a separate rear fuselage for the late E's and F's with the all-flying trail. Just get the speedbrake wells and doors right, and make sure the slats can be deployed. Positionable ammo access doors would be nice, as they were almost always open to be used as a step into the cockpit.If the fairing at the base of the windscreen was a separate part, either style of windscreen could be easily acommodated. I would love to do an early 4th FGF-86 A, most notably Bruce Hinton's 'Squanee!' Love those black and white stripes!

Mike

[Tony Edmundson]

split the rear fuselage at the break point for the A and early E, with a separate rear fuselage for the late E's and F's with the all-flying trail.

All 'E's had the all-flying tail, early "E"s had the Vee shaped windscreen though, the flat windshield being introduced on the E-10.

I do like your idea of a multi-version release, so easy to pull off, and it would be a great seller.

Cheers, Tony

[John R]

I read somewhere that the Airfix F86D wing would be a good starting point. Any thoughts about this?

Also, what about an Airfix Sabre, current version, as a starting point?

[Tony Edmundson]

I read somewhere that the Airfix F86D wing would be a good starting point. Any thoughts about this?

Also, what about an Airfix Sabre, current version, as a starting point?

yes, the Airfix F86D wing is a true, short chord slatted wing. It even has the wing pylon in the correct location. Most other Sabre kits have the location too far outboard. The wing attach is very different than the current Airfix offering. May be possible with a bit of work.

The Airfix F-86E(M) Sabre is a good start if you can get the Kiwi resin F86a conversion.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/939111-kiwi-resin-models-f-86a-sabre-conversion

That being said, the Airfix wheels leave a lot to be desired. Pavla make a good replacement, or a Heller kit would serve as donor too.

Cheers, Tony

[John R]

What do you get with the Kiwi resin conversion? The website is no help. I don't want lots of bells and whistles as I only want to produce a basic a/cstanding on its u/c with everything else retracted

[Wez]

How about a massive write-in campaign to either Platz or Meng Models for a state of the art F-86A/E/F-10? A little clever engineering and some slide molds and all three versions could be catered for; split the rear fuselage at the break point for the A and early E, with a separate rear fuselage for the late E's and F's with the all-flying trail. Just get the speedbrake wells and doors right, and make sure the slats can be deployed. Positionable ammo access doors would be nice, as they were almost always open to be used as a step into the cockpit.If the fairing at the base of the windscreen was a separate part, either style of windscreen could be easily acommodated. I would love to do an early 4th FGF-86 A, most notably Bruce Hinton's 'Squanee!' Love those black and white stripes!

Mike

I think you're more likely to get success lobbying someone like Special Hobby, if they produced something of the quality of their recent Fouga Magister/Zephyr then it would be a cracker.

Special Hobby would be more readily available in the UK and certainly cheaper than either Platz or Meng.

[Tony Edmundson]

What do you get with the Kiwi resin conversion? The website is no help. I don't want lots of bells and whistles as I only want to produce a basic a/cstanding on its u/c with everything else retracted

If it is still available, it consisted of an aft section, wing and a Pavla canopy/windscreen--for the airfix kit.

I think it's a bit much myself, that's why I tried two el-cheapo ways to achieve a F-86A

Tony

Edited February 7, 2016 by Tony Edmundson

[stevehnz]

Sooo, if I've got this right, other than the hard to come by Airfix F-86D & the Matchbox F-86A kits there is no kit with an early narrow cord slatted wing???

Adapting a -D wing to an -E/-F fuselage is difficult, I found that out when I looked at doing the reverse with a 1/72 -F-40 wing on a SH F-86K which allegedly has a too narrow wing & I thought I could use it to do an -A but then it measured out the same as the F-40 wing so I flagged that idea. Maybe the 1/48 SH F-86K has more of a problem in this area. Either way, I'd still like to do an -A sometime without having to resort to hard to find & expensive resin conversions or cross kitting, I guess I might have to resort to some old fashion butchery of a slatted 6-3 wing & rear fuselage.

Steve.

[Tony Edmundson]

Sooo, if I've got this right, other than the hard to come by Airfix F-86D & the Matchbox F-86A kits there is no kit with an early narrow cord slatted wing???

Adapting a -D wing to an -E/-F fuselage is difficult, I found that out when I looked at doing the reverse with a 1/72 -F-40 wing on a SH F-86K which allegedly has a too narrow wing & I thought I could use it to do an -A but then it measured out the same as the F-40 wing so I flagged that idea. Maybe the 1/48 SH F-86K has more of a problem in this area. Either way, I'd still like to do an -A sometime without having to resort to hard to find & expensive resin conversions or cross kitting, I guess I might have to resort to some old fashion butchery of a slatted 6-3 wing & rear fuselage.

Steve.

The Hasegawa F-86D has a short chord slatted wing too. But I never considered using it on my conversions. Slats are molded closed of course

Tony

[Tony Edmundson]

Honestly, the cheapest way to get a F-86A is to get a Matchbox kit and a Heller kit (for the cockpit, landing gear, canopy). The hard bit is fashioning your own windscreen whether it be the Vee shape or a prototype curved shape.

I went the extra distance and transplanted the speedbrake wells from the Heller kit and installed them in the Matchbox fuselage.

Tony

Edited February 8, 2016 by Tony Edmundson

[stevehnz]

Thanks Tony, sounds like a plan to me. I think I'm right in saying that I've seen Pavla do a V shaped screen type canopy which would be right for a production -A??

Steve.

Edited February 8, 2016 by stevehnz

[Tony Edmundson]

Pavla do a Vee windscreen/canopy as do Falcon in their USAF set. The Pavla is almost a drop fit for the Airfix kit, but I'm going to use it on other kits too.

Tony

[Giorgio N]

Sooo, if I've got this right, other than the hard to come by Airfix F-86D & the Matchbox F-86A kits there is no kit with an early narrow cord slatted wing???

Adapting a -D wing to an -E/-F fuselage is difficult, I found that out when I looked at doing the reverse with a 1/72 -F-40 wing on a SH F-86K which allegedly has a too narrow wing & I thought I could use it to do an -A but then it measured out the same as the F-40 wing so I flagged that idea. Maybe the 1/48 SH F-86K has more of a problem in this area. Either way, I'd still like to do an -A sometime without having to resort to hard to find & expensive resin conversions or cross kitting, I guess I might have to resort to some old fashion butchery of a slatted 6-3 wing & rear fuselage.

Steve.

Steve, the SH F-86K wing is a non existing hybrid: the chord is right for the original narrow chord slatted wing but the span includes the F-40 extensions. This wing can be made into the first slatted type by removing the extensions and reshaping the wingtips, not too difficult but annoying. Interestingly the same company F-86H has a correct F-40 wing...

[stevehnz]

Hi Giorgio, I know we discussed this before. When I purchased a F-86 F-40 kit, the Hobby Boss one, to replace the SH F-86K wings, I decided the surgery was just too difficult, that & chord wise the HB wing was pretty much the same as the SH wing. Measuring the HB wing against the 6-3 wing on a Academy F-86F it is noticeably narrower. As you suggested at the time, the Academy F-86E El Diablo kit had the right wing for a Luftwaffe F-86/ Canadair Mk 6 which I duly bought. So this will become a Luftwaffe Sabre with the HB decals. The SH F-86K is goig to stay as is & woe betide anyone caught creeping about with calipers, as for the HB kit, I'm thinking it might well become an A, plenty of meat in the rear fuselage to reshape it & narrow slatted wings which just need their tips pruning & a Pavla.Falcon canopy. Yes???

Steve.

[Giorgio N]

my mistake Steve, I had forgotten we had discussed this before.

Good to know about the HB wing being too narrow, you're right that it may be used as a basis for an early slatted wing. I may go this way myself for an RAF early Mk.4.

Wonder what the HB F-30 wing is like now, if the F-40 is too narrow then the other may be too narrow too... and therefore be another cheap basis for an early narrow chord wing.