What's the best kit for an F86A Sabre (1/72)?

[Denford]

Personally, I wouldn't care too much which of the major players gave us a new 1/72nd Sabre series but given the quality of their recent Fouga Magister and Mirage F.1 I could see Special Hobby coming up trumps with a series of Sabres moulded to that standard, I'm thinking F-86A, F-86E early/late (slat wing), F-86F... without getting too esoteric.

Or Eduard....?

[Wez]

Or Eduard....?

Yes Eduard too but I want them to concentrate on Soviet Bloc aircraft like the MiG-17 and 19. If they could do the Sabres first though...

[James Craik]

Personally, I wouldn't care too much which of the major players gave us a new 1/72nd Sabre series but given the quality of their recent Fouga Magister and Mirage F.1 I could see Special Hobby coming up trumps with a series of Sabres moulded to that standard, I'm thinking F-86A, F-86E early/late (slat wing), F-86F... without getting too esoteric.

Pavla does a 1/72 A canopy/ windscreen.

[Wez]

Pavla does a 1/72 A canopy/ windscreen.

James,

Thanks for the reminder, I actually have the Pavla canopy (somewhere).

This thread and others like it highlight the fact that in spite of being a well kitted type, nobody has got it quite right, all kits exhibit shortcomings (although some less than others). At least in 1/72nd.

So I say there is a case for somebody to come on and clean up by giving us:

F-86A with slat wings,

F-86E early with slat wings (thus covering Sabre F.2),

F-86E late/F-86F early slat wing (covering F.4),

Ditto with hard wing and also with early/late canopy/windscreen (capturing Sabre F.2(M) & F.4(M))

Late F-86F

Ditto with long wings with slats

Sabre F.5

Sabre F.6

And that's without including Avon Sabres or FJ.2/3 Fury.

Enough for some enterprising manufacturer to be going on with.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Wez

[Julien]

I was really hoping Sword would come through with a Fury 2/3

[John R]

Well I have actually started and managed to graft the Heller internals into the Matchbox nose so can anybody please tell me the internal colouring of the cockpit on the XP-86?

Incidentally I did manage to remove the canopy of the Matchbox model without breaking it.

John

[Tony Edmundson]

Well I have actually started and managed to graft the Heller internals into the Matchbox nose so can anybody please tell me the internal colouring of the cockpit on the XP-86?

Incidentally I did manage to remove the canopy of the Matchbox model without breaking it.

John

It's black;

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag19/milemiletich/Sabre%20canopy/xp-86-aircraft_zps3c1f552a.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-f7BhxqmXrFE/UPKGppB3xDI/AAAAAAAAYfk/2EP4YLSrKB8/s1600/XP-86+Sabre+45-59597+4.jpg

Cheers, Tony

[John R]

Great! Thank you

[Jacarre]

Here in Chile we have a Honduran Canadair Sabre Mk 4 with 6-3 "hard" wings in our aviation museum. With my friends of local IPMS, we're measuring wings and fuselage to make sure that the drawings that we're using here are correct (we have of the Osprey book ones, i dont know if they are correct)

Before the measure corrections of drawings, the preliminary comparisons with some existing kits are below:

Heller F-86F-30: wing sweep is off but span and chord is ok for 6-3, but it's slatted. Researching, we think that french guys were trying to represent the rare Sabre 6 wing: a 6-3 short slatted one (not long span like F-40). Fuselage 2-3 mm large.

Airfix F-86E (M)/ F-30/Mk4 : The best against drawings, nose a little narrow, wings ok for 6-3 (hard), fuselage length almost spot - on

Fujimi F-86F-40 / Hobbycraft F-30: wing chord somewhat more larger than 6-3, fuselage slightly more higher than drawings, more longer too. Tail too tall.

We're analyzing Sabre Dog (F-86D) wings, and Airfix and Hasegawa ones are almost spot on: narrow chord and slatted.

Comments are welcome!

Regards,

Javier

Edited July 12, 2016 by Jacarre

[John R]

A couple more XP-86 questions.

As it started life with an engine of lower power than the J-47 was the exhaust and rear fuselage narrower than that for theJj-47 or was it sized to allow the more powerful engine to be fitted without modificaton?

Steve Pace's book 'X-fighters' about the USAF prototype and experimental fighters has a cutaway which shows a ventral airbrake which was later eliminated. Was this instead of the production version or in addition to it? I ask because I can't make out the regular airbrakes in pictures of the XP-86. There is a great picture of the first three Sabres in flight together in the Jenkins and Landis book with the same title and I can see no sign of any airbrakes of hinges.

John

[tempestfan]

Comments are welcome!

Regards,

Javier

Hi Javier, how does the MB kit fare in your comparisons ?

Was this instead of the production version or in addition to it? I ask because I can't make out the regular airbrakes in pictures of the XP-86. There is a great picture of the first three Sabres in flight together in the Jenkins and Landis book with the same title and I can see no sign of any airbrakes of hinges.

John

I think I read somewhere (WarbirdTech, perhaps ?) that the ventral airbrake was replaced by the lateral ones because the ventral one induced heavy nose-down pitch on deployment.

[Jacarre]

Hi Javier, how does the MB kit fare in your comparisons ?

Hi Tempestfan, sadly we don't had the Matchbox kit for comparisons... But the greatest dissapointment were - in our view and in relation to Osprey drawings - the Hobbycraft and Fujimi Kits. Even The Heller kit, with the right surgery, would be a more accurate representation of the real thing. But is only IMHO.

I forget to mention about the hobbyboss kit in our studies the Hobbyboss F-30... Sadly the fuselage is short 4 mm or more on the tail, and the wings are slightly underscaled.

Regards.,

Javier

Edited July 13, 2016 by Jacarre

[Julien]

Had a bash at an F-86A using the matchbox kit, used the screen but not the canopy, took the canopy, seat, wheels et from a spare Heller kit.

I dont think it came out that bad. Really could do with replacing that front screen though.

Julien

[Tony Edmundson]

Really could do with replacing that front screen though.

Julien

Yes, that Matchbox attempt of a windscreen is hideous

Tony

[Julien]

I wish someone would do a resin one, or better yet a new tool A model.

[Wez]

I wish someone would do a resin one, or better yet a new tool A model.

I'm with you on that!

[Jacarre]

Here a friend of mine here in Chile is building and improving the matchbox offering, here's the link of the article in his blog (in spanish, but provide google translation below) http://modelismo-historia.blogspot.cl/2014/02/el-f-86a-y-la-guerra-de-corea-2.html

It seems incredible, but true: we enter the 2nd decade of the 21st century and there is a good Sabre model 'A' on the market (according to current quality standards) and discontinued kit Matchbox PK-32 with more than 35 years edited Sabre remains the only series a 1/72 scale production (There is an F-86A 1/48 of Lindberg # 70553 mark, but is uglier than hitting mom).
Two views of the current presentation, very outdated current standards of quality and lacking in minute detail kit # 70553 Lindberg that distinguish the Sabre 'A' (click on the image below to check).

Now, looking critically at Matchbox kit is easy to notice that several of his rare 22 pieces (that bring it to the category of an 'Easy-kit' Hobby-Boss) are openly rude and Spartan simplicity; the fact that the pilot figure is one of his finest details just does not speak well of the model. All this makes it understandable why there modelers colleagues who have chosen to modify a Sabre series 'E' Hobbycraft (or clone Academy # 1681) to obtain the initial version of the famous game.
But for the Matchbox kit (and project) you can say that, like most of the models is very correct missing marker of linear forms (or on flat ground profile and if you like) and its section tail and rear fuselage is really the best and most appropriate for Sabre model 'a'. The windshield while, usually the detail referenced to distinguish type early famous jet fighter, really is a poor remilgo the characteristic front bezel of the F-86A, a strong feature knowledge that will have to rebuild on their own .
In parallel, through the web are available valuable photographic references both historical and current, especially useful is the Sabre 'A' preserved in pristine condition flight by the Museum Duxford in England (which lacks the 'slats' in the wings for reasons of flight safety). Sabre photos of this gave me good information flood of details that do not usually appear in photos of the time and static displays in other museums.
The best angle of Sabre Matchbox, top floor, which highlights the striking blue color of its wings (right shape and size).
But their profile are obvious limitations raw: the base of the cab line is clearly curve (must be straight), the nose too sharp and very short train.
Here the arrows mark the buts that has this F-86: curved nose something fall, very sharp "chin" very low train, wheels out and stabilizers are right if it does not intervene.
The instructions make the same mistake posture!
According to the known limitations of the kit and robust information I was accumulating, as time passed I was adding other kits F-86, as it were buying 2nd hand or barter, for the sole purpose of 'sacrifice', extracting those pieces which vastly outnumbered in detail to those provided by the Matchbox kit (something not very difficult by the way) and giving it pass those parts of which completely lacked, such as ponds or droppable control panel. Some will ask why not use resin kits improvements? Easy: There are none designed for Sabre Matchbox and also polystyrene kit is good (neither hard nor brittle) and I find it more ductile and manageable, incidentally I avoid using aggressive adhesives for dissimilar materials together.
A practical example of how simple and easy it is to improve this Sabre with parts from other kits.
A) Airbrakes F-86F Heller v / s Airbrakes Matchbox.
C) Train Tapas Matchbox v / s D) Tops Heller kit.
All that said, the first concrete step I with the model is cut, remove and add on both sides of the fuselage all those sections: correspond or not, are not consistent with the actual aircraft or are straight away:
When cutting the fairings (lacking any detail) where the airbrakes are housed, to wear after then extracted the F-86F Heller 2nd hand. the rear end of the jet cockpit was cut, which is integral with the fuselage, this in order to leave open the canopy excellent replacement, also taken from Sabre Heller.
A. The red line marks the true bottom profile Sabre
B. The shape and size of the airbrake is correct, unlike Fujimi, Academy and Hobbycraft kits, ALL erring in this piece
C. The tail section is the best of F-86 Matchbox, very faithful to the original.
the surplus on each side then roughed inside and extracted airbrake wells Heller kit will stick.
Adelgazamos as possible the inside of the exhaust gases to accommodate the excellent internal nozzle kit from F-86F Fujimi.
The diameter nozzle Fujimi scale is much more accurate than the original Matchbox kit (somewhat unsurprisingly)
A) = 6.4 mm Fujimi
matchbox = 4.5 mm
The length of both pieces without embargo is another story. Here it is what premium fit with the tube inside the fuselage and obviously the original part is designed for effect and Fujimi option is considerably shorter.
A) Matchbox = 11.5 mm
Fujimi = 8.5 mm
Real view of the nozzle of the F-86A exhibited in the Smithsonian Museum in the large hangar Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly County, next to Dulles International Airport in Virginia.

Another characteristic feature of the model 'A' Sabre are the slats of the leading edge of the wings and are notorious part of the "look" of these early F-86. At this point I resorted to barter with a friend as the only model available was the Sabre said parts of the Hobbycraft brand, the HC1380 kit promptly representing a Canadair Sabre Mk.4 with wings without slats and therefore did not harm the model's take those two pieces, so the modest cost of a pair of decals got my 'slats'.

Returning to the fuselage, one of the items most impoverish the Sabre Matchbox is his cabin, after a couple of brief tests assembly, Heller transparencies are closest to the ideal, as well as inside cabin.
In this view the cabin 'A' is the original Matchbox and 'B' comes from, much more correct kit F-86F Heller in shape and dimensions.
While the air intake 'C' is the same kit Heller and 'D' matchbox belongs to none of the two is quite correct and will need to make a junction between the two.
This view shows a quick comparison front of both air intakes, while the profile of the Heller is better, the interior shape of the "mouth" of Sabre Matchbox is more accurate and precise, but see the photos taken at MNAE and Smithsonian.

After taking several measures foot underground and calculator more comparisons with appropriate pictures and the same CL-13 (F-86F) of MNAE I took the decision to remove the base of the windshield to be well advanced and a little over sized in scale, then accommodate the windshield Heller to adapt (easier said than done but the dice are already cast!).


In total 8 holes of different sizes and angles they are drilled to emulate those six secondary air intakes and ventilation Shaft turbine not represented in the model as well as the 2 wells airbrake.
Finally, we began modifying the nose section of the F-86A ,, so better recreate the shape of this ... again I urge you "do not do this at home," this madness is an adventure and a personal apostolate this particular kit. If you are interested in becoming a Sabre of this same model, the easiest way is to modify the tail section of an F-86E Academy or Hobbycraft and make-up of the windshield and voila! or wait for some manufacturer inspired edit it ... what happens first, heh-heh!
As you can see the profile Heller is more accurate than the Matchbox.
First test assembly, overlay only.

We left here the first phase of assembly and correction Sabre Matchbox (soon there will be more), giving special thanks to my great friend JAT, who rescued data on the hard drive of my broken laptop, making possible the publication of this article .

[John R]

Some pictures of my conversion of the Matchbox F86A to the XP-86. The nose has been modified internally and externally to accept Heller components.

further to my earlier post about modifying the canopy to get a curved front panel this was not feasible because of the curved lower edge and the original kit canopy had some damage which made it unuseable.

[John R]

Jacarre - thanks for a most interesting post - one section in particular

The diameter nozzle Fujimi scale is much more accurate than the original Matchbox kit (somewhat unsurprisingly)
A) = 6.4 mm Fujimi
matchbox = 4.5 mm
The length of both pieces without embargo is another story. Here it is what premium fit with the tube inside the fuselage and obviously the original part is designed for effect and Fujimi option is considerably shorter.
A) Matchbox = 11.5 mm
Fujimi = 8.5 mm

At first the XP-86 had a J35 engine which was later replaced by the more powerful J47 and I speculated in an earlier post that the rear end of the a/c might have been more narrrow. However if the a/c had been designed to accept the J47 when it became available then I would expect the original nozzle to be a smaller diameter and perhaps the Matchbox version was based on this - even though the engine was changed long before the Sabre reached production. Or maybe Matchbox just got it wrong as a quick check of the other kits in my stash with J35 engines have nozzles as small as 4.5 mm

John

[Jacarre]

Thanks John, is the leading modelling blog here in Chile and Esteban, my friend, is one of the mox experienced modeller of our country.

Here in Santiago a group of modellers of IPMS-Chile are working taking measures of a real example - ex Honduran AF Canadair Sabre Mk 4 with 6-3 wings. It's very similar to an korean era F-30 but with a MB seat. I hope to bring here some results soon.

[Tony Edmundson]

ex Honduran AF Canadair Sabre Mk 4 with 6-3 wings. It's very similar to an korean era F-30.

The Canadair Sabre Mk4 was the equivalent to a F-86E-10 due to the GE J47-13 engine fitted.

The 6-3 wing was retrofitted late in RAF service or before delivery to Yugo.

I assume the MB seat was fitted prior to it's service with Honduras.

Tony

Edited August 1, 2016 by Tony Edmundson

[John R]

I love this bit from the blog referenced by Jacarre

Finally, we began modifying the nose section of the F-86A ,, so better recreate the shape of this ... again I urge you "Do not try this at home" , this madness is an adventure and a personal apostolate this particular kit . If you are interested in becoming a Sabre of this same model, the easiest way is to modify the tail section of an F-86E Academy or Hobbycraft and make - up of the windshield and voila! Or wait for some inspired manufacturer edit it ... whichever comes first , heh-heh!

After doing my mods I'll drink to this!

John

[Jacarre]

The Canadair Sabre Mk4 was the equivalent to a F-86E-10 due to the GE J47-13 engine fitted.

The 6-3 wing was retrofitted late in RAF service or before delivery to Yugo.

I assume the MB seat was fitted prior to it's service with Honduras.

Tony

Yeah Tony, i mean, our Sabre it's very similar externally to an F-86F-30.

Regards.,

Javier

[Tony Edmundson]

Yeah Tony, i mean, our Sabre it's very similar externally to an F-86F-30.

Regards.,

Javier

True enough, but it's even more externally similar to a F-86E(save for the 6-3 wing). It has the panel lines, scoops, and vents of a 'E' model.

Cheers, Tony

[Jacarre]

Thanks a lot Tony for the tip. Well folks, here's our Sabre study. Mi friend Fernando Diaz of IPMS-Chile converted all of the measures to 1/72 and compared to a series of kit: Airfix (new tool), Heller, Fujimi, Hobbycraft/ Academy (same mold we think)... comments are welcome!

Javier

Wings:

Wing leading edge: Airfix ok, Heller 1,5 mm too long, Hobbycraft – Academy (H/A) 3mm too short

Wing trailing edge: Airfix ok, Heller 1 mm too long, H/A 2 mm too short

Wing chord at the root: Airfix ok, Heller ok, Fujimi 1 mm too long, H/A ok

Wing chord at the tip: Airfix ok, Heller ok, H/A ok 2 mm too long

Total wing span: Airfix ok, Heller ok, H/A ok. Fujimi has a ok span for F-40

Tail horizontal surfaces individual span: Airfix 1 mm too short, Heller ok, Fujimi ok, H/A 1 mm too short

Fuselage:

Nose to leading edge: Airfix 1 mm too short, Heller 2 mm too long, Fujimi ok. H/A 1 mm too short

Wing trailing edge to tail: Airfix 2 mm too short, Heller 1,5 mm too short, Fujimi 1 mm too short, H/A 1,5 mm too short

Nose to tail: Airfix 2 mm too short, Heller ok, Fujimi ok, H/A ok