What's the best kit for an F86A Sabre (1/72)?

[Sabrejet]

OK so here is just about the final bit: forward fuselage. First of all, missing from the F-86F (upon which most Sabre kits are based), are two prominent vents, which duct hot air from the compressor area of the engine outer casing:

 

 

 

Sliding canopy: the XP-86s and all F-86A-1s had a 'long' perspex canopy, with the 'short' perspex section and cabin air outlet in the aft, metallic section introduced on the F-86A-5s (and every other day fighter Sabre):

 

 

While we're talking about F-86A-1s, this is what the rounded screen (also XP-86) looks like:

 

 

Automatically-retractable gun muzzle doors were fitted to all F-86As (plus the last XP-86) up to circa s/n 49-1200. They were later removed and the blast panel replaced by more conventional open-ended holes as seen on all F-86E onwards. More on the modification to 'open gun muzzles' later. The gun doors looked like this:

 

 

And a bit of info about how they worked:

 

 

Minor point, but worth a mention: the forward equipment bay door (top of the nose, forward of the windshield) is retained on all F-86As, by one latch forward and one latch aft (plus locating rods internally): they can be seen here on this F-86A-1 panel. For info, All later F-86E and F-86F etc had two latches at the aft end and a squarer section there (there are minor differences at the aft end between v-screen and round-screen F-86As which can be seen in this and other photos above):

 

 

Pitot probe: all F-86As were manufactured with the pitot probe inside the engine intake (but see later regarding modification): Note that the square aluminium plates seen in the intake of this static preserved F-86A-5 are for attaching a permanent FOD blank.

 

 

 

Getting there! Final bit for the 'production standard' F-86A is just to note that the entire intake ring was fibreglass and painted a pale gray colour (spec AN-L-29). Also ringed are two removeable blanks in the intake ring, which are often painted silver and visible in many photos (also just visible in the photo above). Also note the six-spoke nose-wheel, which was fitted to many F-86As early in production:

 

 

From August 1950, most 48-Fiscal Year F-86A-5s (serial numbers beginning ‘8-‘) were put through North American Aviation’s Long Beach plant for upgrade, along with more than 200 of the 49-Fiscal Year (serial numbers beginning ‘9-‘) aircraft. Appropriately, the first two aircraft to arrive at Long Beach for modification were the first two F-86A-5s produced (48-129 and 48-130), which flew in from 94th FS on 14th August 1950.

 

This work continued into November 1951 with a view to establishing a common standard, based upon the final F-86A-5s to be delivered, and work included the fitting of a conventional machine gun blast panel in place of the retractable muzzle doors. The intake-mounted pitot probe was also relocated to the right wingtip during this refit. Aircraft leaving this phase of modification had the grey paint removed from their intake rings, and instead the intakes of ‘post-Long Beach’ F-86As were brown in colour, with a broad white band at the rear edge. 

 

The final F-86A-5s had been manufactured to this standard (brown intake colour + conventional machine gun blast panel), with the grey intake paint retained up to circa 49-1240 and the gun doors up to circa 49-1200. The last F-86A was delivered in December 1950. These two photos show the later-colour intake and though poor, the colour shot gives a rough idea of its colour:

 

 

 

Final bit for this section (promise!)

 

The Mk.18 gunsight had been fitted as standard to all F-86As up to the 530th example (49-1315), though all production F-86As had provision (wiring etc) to fit the A-1B gunsight and AN/APG-5C radar ranging equipment. The final 24 F-86As (from 49-1316 onwards) received the A-1CM gunsight, which was linked to an AN/APG-30 radar installed in the upper intake lip. 

 

On 2nd April 1951, contract AF-18188 was issued to upgrade 350 of the older F-86As to the final gunsight/radar standard through a program of manufacturer modification. Between January 1952 and August 1953, all affected F-86As passed through NAA’s Fresno facility, though there were two standards of modification: F-86A-5s fitted with the A-1CM sight and AN/APG-5C radar were re-designated F-86A-6, and more commonly, the AN/APG-30 radar was paired with the A-1CM, and these models were known as F-86A-7. Key visual clue to recognizing the F-86A-6 and F-86A-7 aircraft is the aluminium intake ring in place of the earlier all-fibreglass item, with just a small radar-transparent panel (usually coated in black rubberized paint) in the upper intake lip. Note that no 47-Fiscal Year F-86A-1s were brought up to this standard. This shot shows how the F-86A-6/F-86A-7 intake ring looked, but note that this machine still retains its intake-mounted airspeed probe! Which is a lesson in "never say never"...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Sabrejet

[Sabrejet]

Final bits for F-86A: a few cockpit items.

 

Ejection seat was basically the same as later Sabres, but there were differences in foot rests etc. Also the sequence of canopy jettison (via handles/seat handles etc) was revised slightly during the F-86A production span. Also the F-86A seat had a well-padded headrest (usually dark green in colour), whereas the later F-86E/F etc seat headrest was a very thinly-padded item (usually red), bolted to the metallic part of the seat headrest. Below is the colour diagram of F-86A seat, followed by a shot from the parts catalogue for F-86E showing the later seat (but minus the actual head rest part).

 

 

 

Next some shots of the cockpit, taken from the Flight Manual:

 

 

 

 

 

And finally, this is a photo I took of 48-178/G-SABR's instrument panel, which aside from the satnav mount on the coaming, is pretty well restored correctly. G-SABR had a later seat fitted, however: it came from a Mitsubishi-built F-86F, likely courtesy of the US Navy's QF-86F drone programme. I've tried to leave the image large so that you can read labels etc.

 

 

EDIT: I just noted that, though loaded to Photobucket at large resolution, when I save these images to my desktop they have re-formatted to the smaller size shown: anyone know how to get around that?

Edited May 17, 2017 by Sabrejet

[Courageous]

Sabrejet, with so much info, you should get a book published! 

 

Stuart

[Sabrejet]

4 hours ago, Courageous said:

Sabrejet, with so much info, you should get a book published! 

 

Stuart

 

Um.....yes indeed...

[72modeler]

Sabrejet,

 

I don't know about my new cyber modeling friend and Sabre fanatic, Tony E, but I had to stop several times to wipe the drool off of my laptop screen while viewing your incredible posts! Thank you so much on behalf of all of us for sharing this incredible resource! Internet forums like BM have provided us with resources, references, and techniques that help make all of us better modelers- where was the internet 30 years ago when I was cranking  out 2-3 finished models a month and could have really made use of the information? Thank you again for your generosity.

 

Tony E- guess we have no excuse now for not doing an F-86A justice, do we? (Bruce Hinton's Squanee- here we come!)

 

Mike

Edited May 19, 2017 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Sabrejet]

Mike,

 

Many thanks: much appreciated. I have to admit that I'm thinking of doing a 1/32 F-86A too. 

[Tony Edmundson]

1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

Sabrejet,

 

I don't know about my new cyber modeling friend and Sabre fanatic, Tony E, but I had to stop several times to wipe the drool off of my laptop screen while viewing your incredible posts! Thank you so much on behalf of all of us for sharing this incredible resource! Internet forums like BM have provided us with resources, references, and techniques that help make all of use better modelers- where was the internet 30 years ago when I was cranking  out 2-3 finished models a month and could have really made use of the information? Thank you gain for your generosity.

 

Tony E- guess we have no excuse now for not doing an F-86A justice, do we? (Bruce Hinton's Squanee- here we come!)

 

Mike

Mike,  I'll stick to my Canadair Mk2 series now, as I have already fulfilled my F-86A wishes in 1/72.

 

These last few posts of Sabrejet had me 'right clicking & saving' and it's always nice to learn a new tidbit or two

 

Cheers, Tony

[tempestfan]

I can only tune in : It is most generous to take the time to post all that info convenient for immediate digestion, all those clear pics. Even if some of the info may be  available elsewhere , here is in one place. I freely admit creating a new folder and doing a lot of right clicks, but I'll have to save your text, too.

I know some may consider me a pervert, but I feel an urge to look for the fossilic Lindberg kit on the net...

[Sabrejet]

One minor addition: from mid-1953 most F-86As gained a new VHF antenna cap at the top of the tail fin. All production F-86As had the entire fin cap in fibreglass, but the modification introduced a metallic leading-edge panel (to better prevent rain erosion, minor birdstrike damage etc), with the rest of the panel still fibreglass. The earlier version of the fin cap often had a black, rubberised paint applied for a modicum of erosion protection. Modification to the later type was not part of F-86A-6/7 upgrade. 

 

[Sabrejet]

14 hours ago, Tony Edmundson said:

Mike,  I'll stick to my Canadair Mk2 series now, as I have already fulfilled my F-86A wishes in 1/72.

 

These last few posts of Sabrejet had me 'right clicking & saving' and it's always nice to learn a new tidbit or two

 

Cheers, Tony

 

Are you doing RAF or Italian versions? I've yet to see either modelled.

 

[Tony Edmundson]

8 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

 

Are you doing RAF or Italian versions? I've yet to see either modelled.

 

RAF and Italian Sabres are Mk4s or a F-86E-10 equivalent.    And yes, I intend to do a couple RAF and a couple Italian aerobatic team aircraft.

 

Cheers, Tony

[Sabrejet]

23 minutes ago, Tony Edmundson said:

RAF and Italian Sabres are Mk4s or a F-86E-10 equivalent.    And yes, I intend to do a couple RAF and a couple Italian aerobatic team aircraft.

 

Cheers, Tony

 

Tony,

 

The RAF had three Sabre Mk.2s and Italy one: hence my thoughts that they might make interesting modelling subjects.

 

The three RAF Sabres were 19378/XB530, 19384/XB531 and 19404/XB532. All three served with 1 Overseas Ferry Unit at Abingdon (later renamed Ferry Training Unit), with XB530 coded 'A', XB531 coded 'B' and XB532 'C'.

 

XB530 was later transferred to the Greek AF; XB531 also served with 229 OCU at Chivenor but was scrapped following refurbishment with Airwork General Trading at Gatwick circa 1957. XB532 also went on to 229 OCU as well as a brief period with Central Fighter Establishment. This is the one that went to Italy.

 

Photos are few, but here goes:

 

 

Note the non-standard font and positioning of the serial numbers on the RAF Sabre 2s.

 

 

 

NOTE: barely visible on the fin is the 2° Stormo/Aerobrigata badge:

Edited May 19, 2017 by Sabrejet

[Wez]

Interesting histories for the RAF and Italian Sabre 2's but dull colour schemes in comparison to the RAF F.4's and the Italian Sabre 4's/F-86E(M), I know this is a personal perspective, on the other hand there are some really interesting Canadian schemes for Sabre 2's though as well as some of the Greek and Turkish schemes.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Wez

[Giorgio N]

Thanks for posting the picture of the AMI Mk.2! I remember a heated discussion on an Italian modelling forum around 10 years ago on the Mk.2, with many denying its existance until someone with all the serial numbers came with the history of this aircraft. I don't think I had ever seen a picture before (but I saw a model of this aircraft in the past with the correct slatted wing)

 

[Tony Edmundson]

2 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

 

Tony,

 

The RAF had three Sabre Mk.2s and Italy one: hence my thoughts that they might make interesting modelling subjects.

 

 

I knew that, but they're not interesting enough for me to abandon my theme of aerobatic teams.

 

Tony

[Robin]

Interesting to note in the picture of the Sabres on the parade, the difference in dimension of the fin markings of XB530 and XB543.  I remember when visiting Liverpool(Speke) Airport in 1959, there were a large number of RAF Sabres lined up waiting for disposal, unfortunately, over the years, my records of serial numbers have gone missing.  

 

Robin.

[Troy Smith]

On 2017-5-18 at 18:10, tempestfan said:

I can only tune in : It is most generous to take the time to post all that info convenient for immediate digestion, all those clear pics. Even if some of the info may be  available elsewhere , here is in one place. I freely admit creating a new folder and doing a lot of right clicks, but I'll have to save your text, too.

I know some may consider me a pervert, but I feel an urge to look for the fossilic Lindberg kit on the net...

 

as in 1/48th?  

well, I got a Lindberg A,  and while a product of it's era,(50's)   I compared it with an Academy F , and the overall it matched up  very  well in major shapes.

 

No separate wing slats,  but perhaps Sabrejet an pitch in with what bits of a F86D could be used to  upgrade the Lindberg  A (uc legs?,  basic cockpit tub? )  as Revellogram D kit has long been a 'cheap' source of a slatted wing in 1/48th. (and has been reissued recently)

 

A search on hyperscale  reveals a lot of negativity on the Lindberg A,  and it's been a while since I  looked so I might be talking cobblers (and  mine's in the loft so i can't check  right now)

 

Certainly not an easy it of  modelling however you approach it.  I've been asked by SWMGI  (she who  mostly gets ignored) to move some stuff which needs to  go to  the loft so I'll pull it out again and check.

 

 

 

[stever219]

4 hours ago, Wez said:

Interesting histories for the RAF and Italian Sabre 2's but dull colour schemes in comparison to the RAF F.4's and the Italian Sabre 4's/F-86E(M), I know this is a personal perspective, on the other hand there are some really interesting Canadian schemes for Sabre 2's though as well as some of the Greek and Turkish schemes.

 

Didn't some of the 1 Overseas Ferry Unit Sabres have red hi-vis panels on wings and tail for the Atlantic crossing at least?

[Sabrejet]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

 

as in 1/48th?  

well, I got a Lindberg A,  and while a product of it's era,(50's)   I compared it with an Academy F , and the overall it matched up  very  well in major shapes.

 

No separate wing slats,  but perhaps Sabrejet an pitch in with what bits of a F86D could be used to  upgrade the Lindberg  A (uc legs?,  basic cockpit tub? )  as Revellogram D kit has long been a 'cheap' source of a slatted wing in 1/48th. (and has been reissued recently)

 

A search on hyperscale  reveals a lot of negativity on the Lindberg A,  and it's been a while since I  looked so I might be talking cobblers (and  mine's in the loft so i can't check  right now)

 

Certainly not an easy it of  modelling however you approach it.  I've been asked by SWMGI  (she who  mostly gets ignored) to move some stuff which needs to  go to  the loft so I'll pull it out again and check.

 

 

 

 

Troy,

 

It's a long time since I had a Lindberg F-86A kit and from what I recall it was not a good starting point. I'd certainly recommend using the Revell/Monogram F-86D landing gear, drop tanks and wings but suggest it would be far easier (but by no means cheap) for the other bits to start with a recent 1/48 F-86F kit and then modify that back to get an F-86A.

 

For me, trying to make the Lindberg "F-86A" into a reasonable representation of an F-86A would be akin to starting with a kit of a Hurricane and converting it into a Spitfire. 

[Sabrejet]

40 minutes ago, stever219 said:

 

Didn't some of the 1 Overseas Ferry Unit Sabres have red hi-vis panels on wings and tail for the Atlantic crossing at least?

 

They did, as did most other Sabres ferried to the UK for the RAF. Wing markings visible here:

 

 

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

 

Troy,

 

It's a long time since I had a Lindberg F-86A kit and from what I recall it was not a good starting point. I'd certainly recommend using the Revell/Monogram F-86D landing gear, drop tanks and wings but suggest it would be far easier (but by no means cheap) for the other bits to start with a recent 1/48 F-86F kit and then modify that back to get an F-86A.

 

For me, trying to make the Lindberg "F-86A" into a reasonable representation of an F-86A would be akin to starting with a kit of a Hurricane and converting it into a Spitfire. 

 

Thanks Steve

as i said, i'm no Sabre expert,  but the  basic shapes of the Lindberg seemed  good,  (I lined up the Lindberg and Academy fuselages)

It looked less work than doing an accurate Hurricane  out of the old Monogram kit, and I have looked into doing  that out of sheer  bloodymindedness.   Certainly a  lot of  work.  

I was kindly sent a load of Sabre bits from a chap  who had spares  from cross  kitting F and D wings... and the Eduard etch sets  come with early and late instrument panels I think.

 

the lack of a decent F-86A  /E/early F sabre is most puzzling... 

 

I'll dig out  the kit and refresh my memory compared to  the excellent information you have so helpfully posted,  if  the cosmic forces that govern such things  as cameras, charged batteries, online photo hosting and  mental capacity to align the above I might do some comparison pics...

 

cheers

T

 

[tempestfan]

Yes Troy, Lindberg as in "wrong scale for this thread " 😎. I am fully aware their 50s  kits are essentially technical toys not scale models  (the few aircraft they did later were worse - just terribly bad kits), but as long as the shapes are decent. ..Their -1 (rather proto) Crusader isn't too bad in this respect, and from what I've seen of the Skyhawk, it also may qualify. At least the A Sabre was a fully developed product when they cut the mould, opposed to the above mentioned, their Tiger etc. etc. Backdating an F to an A Sabre may not quite be as involved as an E to an early A Cruse, but I guess a lot of a/m stuff intended for an E or F Sabre would also need modding. If someone says the Lindberg A is as close to a real one as a Revell F-84G is to an F-86A, then I would bury the idea. ..

[Sabrejet]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Thanks Steve

 

the lack of a decent F-86A  /E/early F sabre is most puzzling... 

 

I'll dig out  the kit and refresh my memory compared to  the excellent information you have so helpfully posted,  if  the cosmic forces that govern such things  as cameras, charged batteries, online photo hosting and  mental capacity to align the above I might do some comparison pics...

 

cheers

T

 

 

Troy,

 

It's Duncan, not Steve, though you can call me Mary if it floats your boat 

 

I admire your efforts if you do go the Lindberg way because it would mean a lot of effort and I think there wouldn't be much 'Lindberg' in the finished model (I recall the cockpit was pretty bare and the intake completely the wrong shape, plus a thick canopy etc). However I haven't done much modelling in a few years so I don't really know what after-market stuff is out there: Tony mentioned some nice F-86A stuff in 1/72 (wings, canopy etc), so maybe it's easier in 1/48 than it used to be.

 

Please keep us posted. In the meantime you have me really thinking about doing an F-86A myself, but now in 1/48 maybe.  

[Wez]

10 hours ago, stever219 said:

 

Didn't some of the 1 Overseas Ferry Unit Sabres have red hi-vis panels on wings and tail for the Atlantic crossing at least?

 

Yes but that only slightly tarts up a pretty nondescript scheme, the in-service schemes (e.g. with squadron markings), are way more interesting

 

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

the lack of a decent F-86A  /E/early F sabre is most puzzling... 

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more especially as to some extent it extends across the popular scales (e.g. 1/72 AND 1/48).

 

 

One last thing (for now at least), how do we get this thread pinned?

[John R]

Revisiting one of my earlier questions that never got answered. The XP-86 had 'somethings' at the top of the rudder trailing edge which were not on later versions. However the later versions had lights on the rear fuselage just above the exhaust which I don't think were on the XP-86. Were the 'somethings' the original position of the lights?

 

Sabrejet - anything that you have that is specific to  the XP-86 would be most welcome. I did appreciate your pictures of the earliest canopy - the best I have seen. Much of what I have learned before starting this thread came from 'Experimental & Prototype U.S. Airforce Jet Fighters' by Jenkins and Landis.

John