LongMan2 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Hi All, Need help with detailed photos or Tech drawings of the Halifax Mk III in the areas of the rear elevators and flaps. Any technical orders on how they are assembled would be greatly appreciated. Most drawings I see are for the Mk II. Thanks much.. PHIL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Shouldn't these be the same for both marks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cees Broere Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Correct, only the fins were different. Cees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 Hi All, The reason I'm asking for this is there are specific hinge details in both aircraft. The photos I have, when aircraft is parked, show the hinge is visible when they are fully dropped down...yet some don't show it esp the main flaps on MkIII? The rear elevators show specific details esp how narrow they are and their depth into the movable surface. The plans I have show rather thick and shallow hinge which I believe are wrong. The tail plane forward of the movable rear flap has a specific details so I'm told. It doesn't just have a flat surface.... If you lower the movable surface this becomes visible? Its tough when you don't have the real aircraft to look at... Thanks again... PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 You could try asking those nice people at Elvington? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 My post 4 here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234996119-handley-page-halifax-technical-drawings/ may help if the marks are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Hi Rossm, Thanks for posting but those drawings are not sufficient for my needs. I have a rare photo of "Friday 13th" in Bond Street London in 1945, with a photo taken from above out of a building before it was broken up for scrap. It clearly shows, although its from some distance, the main flaps and the location of the activating mechanism on each one. Also underneath there appears to be visible hinge points...although its hard to tell. I guess I will track down that photo as a reference. Most photos I have a re very dark and poor quality...meaning they don't lend themselves to magnification. Rear elevators have bumps and hinge points that seem strange. On MkII aircraft there is a bump, on the fuselage side, that is possibly is a rotation point? I'm not sure. The actual hinge (very light weight) is not visible from the top and the only thing that is visible is the stark face of the non movable portion of the elevator. Then there is the movable sections have recesses that indicate quite extensive up and down travel...yet the hinge is very thin and long. Contradictory to the drawings and kit that I have. I hope these photos provide an image for the areas I'm talking about. I hope out there in BM there is a Halifax fan that has a technical Order or repain manual for these areas. Sadly I'm stuck at home and can't contact the RAF or Canadian AF Museum. All in all, I wish I had access to the aircraft in Canada AF museum and its recent restoration. The Yorkshire aircraft appears to be a mix of several aircraft and patches. Any how may be I'll get luck and some one will post suitable details here... Thanks again. PHIL. Edited January 28, 2016 by LongMan2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 The original HP drawings are in the archives, I believe, of the RAF Museum, courtesy of the Handley Page Association.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 Hi Graham, How do I contact them at the RAF Museum? I'm in another country...far away. PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I'm sure they'll respond, in some manner, to an email or a letter, if only to confirm that they do have Halifax drawings. However, given the funding cuts, they may not have the manpower to chase down whatever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 Hi Graham, Is there any email addy for them? PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) This may or may not help. From the Halifax III technical manual A.P 1719C Vol 1. The full manual can be purchased on CD from Seller Superchalk64 on Ebay at 'http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HANDLEY-PAGE-HALIFAX-RARE-archive-collectioble-WWII-detailed-archive-1940s-/371527207978?'. 450 Pages of simlar info, cost GBP 6.95 plus Postage. Probably a lot easier (and cheaper) than trying to get stuff from the Museum. Edited January 28, 2016 by Hornet133 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie22 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) 1). The flaps on the Halifax were of the single slotted type. The hinge axis was behind the flap leading edge and slightly under the wing lower surface. As the flaps were lowered they moved aft and opened up a gap between the wing and the flap.m This allowed high energy airflow to pass from under the wing and through the slot between the flap leading edge and the wing, energizing the flow over the flap upper surface and delaying separation. The slots that you have marked on the flaps in your photo above show where the hinge brackets were mounted. You can see their shape in my photos below, which also show how the hinge axis is below the wing lower surface. 2). The elevators do not project above the upper or lower surface of the tailplane at any time. This is an aerodynamic no-no, as it would cause flow separation, and severely limit the effectiveness of the elevators. The hinge axis on the elevators is set back to balance the forces and reduce the aerodynamic loads transmitted through the controls to the pilot. The section of the elevator in front of this is contoured so that at no time does its surface protrude above, (or below), the tailplane section. The elevator in the photo below is angled down slightly and you can see that it does not protrude above the tailplane in any way. The 'bump' in the photo you posted may be due to the damage incurred by the elevators. Hornet's drawing shows how the hinges project well aft of the elevator leading edge. Apologies for the quality of my sketches, but they were thrown together quickly to try and give you some idea of how the flaps and elevators functioned. Hope the above helps until you find the drawings you are looking for, Magpie 22 Edited January 28, 2016 by Magpie22 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 Hi, Thanks Magpie22 but all these images you posted are not down-loadable. Are these public? Also the technical manual Hornet133 advises is now sold out. So I guess its all mute for me... Well It appears we have a mystery. The Yorkshire Halifax doesn't have the bump, yet the Canadian AF Museum Halifax does. At least from what I can make out...from the poor photograph. I assume its a lubrication access point to tend to the movable portion of the elevators...but I'm only guessing? Then why doesn't the Yorkshire Museum Halifax have it? Also many of the builds, Including the Greek MkII build in 1/48, which seems very comprehensive, doesn't have this important detail. And the main hinge for the wing flaps is highly visible but still no images of it. I guess its too high up for most to take a photo of. Really need a TO on that issue I'm afraid. Well the easy way out is to not do it...I guess. Maybe I shouldn't have cut it out.... Thanks to all that posted... PHIL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heraldcoupe Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Hi, Thanks Magpie22 but all these images you posted are not down-loadable. Are these public? Also the technical manual Hornet133 advises is now sold out. So I guess its all mute for me... Relisted here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281917917689?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D281917917689%26_rdc%3D1 Cheers, Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Magpie 22's photos ARE downloadable. 'Click' on the photo to open the page in Photobucket (where it is hosted). Then click on the magnifying glass with the plus sign above it to enlarge it to the max size. Then right click the photo and choose 'save image'. One always has to load photobucket images from their page (and not the forum's), otherwise you get a blank file which I assume was your problem. That Ebay seller always relists the items once they expire. Thus you can get a copy of the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeronut Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Hi, Then why doesn't the Yorkshire Museum Halifax have it? PHIL Probably because it's not really a Halifax, its more of a full scale model of one, made from a portion of a Halifax fuselage, Hasting wings, Noratlas engines and a lot of new metal. Looks good though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) Hi All, It seems things are really taking a turn: - "A FAKE HALIFAX Mk III BOMBER IN YORKSHIRE". Hmmm. Mr. Aeronut - thanks for pointing that out. I knew something was up when the wartime photos don't match with the Halifax bomber in Yorkshire. Seems Canada is the only place where a proper airframe exists. The ramifications of this is important cuz I now know why the FM Halifax is so screwed up! Or maybe its just FM...I don't know. Hornet133 - I tried that from their Photobucket page and no go. It still wouldn't download. Photobucket makes the poster list their image as a choice. You have to list it as Public in order for us modellers to down-load-it. At least that what I do. Yours is excellent..."Hint!" If you look at the image that was posted of the Halifax manual you see a weird semi-circle cut out of the metal piece, where the elevator section meets the fuselage. I wonder what that was for, and if there is a bulged cover over it? I think more is needed...and it is interesting. Well to me at least. Its looking like we have to spend some more time digging around in the quagmire of literature and electronic media for more Halifax bomber revelations.....TBC... PHIL. Edited January 28, 2016 by LongMan2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 PHIL, I know how Photobucket works. If it will not download for you then you are doing something wrong. I downloaded one of those images no problem and it should work for you if you follow the method I advised correctly. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 Hi Steve, I tried it several times but didn't work....so I created a whole new file just for it. It worked fine then. I have no idea why that was happening. I know how to use Photobucket and this is a first for me. I have checked all my security and had to drop it down to download this file. Most files I don't have to do this. I have no idea what happened. As the wing of the Yorkshire Halifax is a mockup...its of no use if you want to build a scale model. But I guess its size is impressive... In any case I have purchased several books on the Halifax Bomber. In the past I've spent too much money in fact. It was my youthful exuberance and wishfulness to get things started. I hope to get a reasonable model of an accurate Halifax built ...but we shall see. Its places like Britmodeller where things get to be scrutinized for their correctness in a public forum. Can't do that when a book is published. I have to say most books on the Halifax are just regurgitations of existing material esp the photos. It seems there is no real solid Halifax Bombers in Britain to use as a example...which is ashame. Thanks much for your help. PHIL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) Quote... It seems there is no real solid Halifax Bombers in Britain to use as a example...which is ashame. ...Unquote (something went wrong with using the Quote button) There is a fair chunk of one in the RAF Museum, albeit Merlin engined. I don't know if the details you want survived the crash and recovery. Edited January 29, 2016 by rossm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heraldcoupe Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Search online for images of W1048. This is the Merlin-engined Halifax recovered from a Lake Hoklingen in 1973. It is on display in it's as-recovered state at Hendon. Though this is a different sub-type, the flying surface details you need should be consistent. It's lack of covering on these surfaces may be helfpul to you, though I've struggle to find any images of the tail from above, Cheers, Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicarage Vee Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) When the people at YAM were putting so much effort into honouring the Handley Page Halifax and those involved with it, I didn't think that it would ever be decried as "a fake". Personally, I think what they achieved was one of the greatest feats in aircraft preservation/commemoration in the past 30 years. I have nothing but the utmost admiration and gratitude for their efforts and achievements. If it isn't an accurate reference for scale modellers... so what? I can tell you, the 4 Group veterans I know appreciate what they've done. Sorry, but the implied criticism of what they achieved really irks. Not having a pop at anyone, Aeronut I know you acknowledged that it looks good, but there are people who do criticise it, people who couldn't have got anywhere near to what was achieved. Bit of a touchy subject for me I'm afraid. Edited January 29, 2016 by Vicarage Vee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Hi Vicarage Vee, I think you are making something out of this that isn't there. If any museum chooses to display something, like this, it should say this is a mock-up and detail what it clearly is. Many books and magazine articles show this aircraft as a Halifax...which is obviously very wrong and misleading to us all. I'm not even considering the subject as a memorial to downed Halifax crews...gee. Vee, this is a scale modelling page not a memorial page. I hope you understand this is what we do...If anything I suggest all those that flew or worked on HP Halifax aircraft push and get one airframe built...I think this aircraft deserves more than what we have now. I hope the Canadian AF Museum will consider helping the RAF Museum in rebuilding a complete and authentic airframe... PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie22 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Phill, I wasn't going to make any more comments in this topic following your comments re the YAM aircraft being a "FAKE". I suggest you do some research and get your facts correct before making such an insulting statement about the work done by YAM, in their effort to honour many brave Commonwealth flyers who died flying from the airfields in Yorkshire. (I have no connection with Yam, but as a result of my researches am well aware of the heavy loss of life in those squadrons. I applaud YAM for their efforts to honour them with that display and their memorial garden). Yes, the Yam did use Halifax components, bits of Halifax and some of their own. in house,metalwork. The wings were from a Hastings aircraft. The outer panels on the Hastings are the same as those on the Halifax. Therefore the photos I sent you are relevant to all variants of the Halifax. I have no idea what you mean by, "And the main hinge for the wing flaps is highly visible but still no images of it. I guess its too high up for most to take a photo of." As I pointed out the hinge axis and therefore the hinges for the flaps is under the wing lower surface and the hinges are clearly visible in the photos I posted. It is not "high up" as you seem to believe. Such an arrangement would be quite impractical. Perhaps you are confusing the cut-outs in the flap upper surface, that are there to provide clearance for the hinge mounting brackets when the flap is closed. They only become visible when the flap is lowered. You say you have researched the Halifax in detail, yet if you were to look at Ken Merricks drawings, (Aeromodeller 2882, available in 1/144, 1/72. 1/48), you would know where the hinges of the flaps and elevators are positioned. Incidentally, On the other hand, I understand that the FM kit which you also decry, was based on those drawings, so maybe you have them and have found errors in them. Magpie 22 Edited January 30, 2016 by Magpie22 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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