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Any expert on the P-47M who may can help with some questions?


Basilisk

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I am currently building Tamiya's 1/48 P-47M with the markings of USAAF 61st Fighter Squadron 56th Fighter Group 8th Air Force flown by Captain Witold Lanowski from Boxted in 1945.

P-47M-421108-PF.jpg

I am no P-47 expert, but I learned a lot since I started this build. But I still have some questions I am kind of stuck.

1. Tamiya has an oxygen house in the P-47D cockpit representation, but not in the P-47M Cockpit. Should there be one or was the oxygen house part of the pilot's gear like with the Hurricane?

2. What gunsight was used in the P-47M? was it the K-14 Gunsight?

I came across this cockpit picture of a restored P-47M which looks that the restoration was done with a lot of care.

305-2.jpg

Is the Gunsight in the picture above a K-14?

In regards to the markings of this aircraft, it shows the US markings in with a light blue edge instead of dark blue.

The only picture I could find was this ( are there any other pictures of 421108?)

P-47M-421108-1.jpg

In regards to the light blue outline of the national markings, was this a common occurrence on P-47Ms from the 61st FS?

All other pictures I could find don't have it as the national marking is surrounded by the black upper colour.

Could it be that this colour was silver instead of light blue as the tone of above picture is matching the outline of the letters rather well.

Any help and thoughts are much appreciated.

Cheers, Peter

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I'm not an expert, but the P-47M and its atypical finish and markings have been a hot topic among Jug fans for quite a while. I pulled all of my P-47 references and will stick my neck out and make the following unlearned and non-expert observations:

All of the photos I examined of the M showed the K-14 sight was fitted, and I also found one written reference that confirrmed this.

On the oxygen hose- none of the M cockpit photos I was able to find showed a hose fitted the the regulator; however, the photos were all of restored a/c which may or may not have retained the hose- note that modern warbirds are usually restricted to VFR flight rules and altitudes, so use of oxygen for the pilot would not be necessary, but is clearly used by some warbird pilots. All of the period photos I could find of pilots that had their oxygen masks showed a short length of hose as a part of the mask which evidently connected to the hose attached to the regulator assembly- too short to connect directly to the regulator, so my uneducated guess would be that there should be a section of hose attached to the regulator in the cockpit.Perhaps an expert out there can help?

Regarding the colors and markings, I believe the light blue outline to the national insignia is correct, as I found written evidence of this in a couple of references, including the new Zemke's Wolfpack, 56th Fighter Group hardback book; in addition, the photos I was able to find seemed to also confirm this, but you already know about the insanity of trying to use black and white photos to confirm colors! All of the color profiles I found used the same light blue surround, drawings should always be looked at with a critical eye.

The white surround to the red squadron and aircraft codes also seems to be correct and seem to match the tone of the white in the national insignia.

Now here's the interesting part- I have read and have seen in some reference photosand color profiles that this aircreaft and some others in the same squadron were not painted black overall, but insignia blue; in some photos, the fuselage color and insignia blue portion of the national insignia seem to be almost identical;in some the tonal value of the blue part of the national insignia and the surrounding fuselage are different- perhaps because insignia blue was not a matte color and would appear as a different tone against a matte black fuselage?

I have no idea which is correct, but hopefully somebody out there will be able to provide corroboration one way or the other?

BTW- be sure to use the cockpit floor that is smooth, as the D-30's and subsequent aircraft replaced the corrugated cockpit floor with one that was smooth; this would be correct for an M or N.

I have attached a link to a site that has excellent detail and color photos of P-47 cockpits, including late D's, M's, and N's- you can see good examples of the dull dark green cockpit color used on those versions.Click on the blue-lettered label to see the photos.

I hope this helps and maybe one of the resident P-47 experts can add input!

Mike

http://allaircraftsimulations.com/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=P+-47+Thunderbolt+cockpit+modding

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Gun sight could have been a pilot' choice, but it was K-14 for Lanny all right.

'M' was basically a D-30 with C series engine. No changes in cockpit Oxygen installation.

I've never met anybody questioning the light blue version of the insignia rims. Never met a hard proof for that either. Of course there are other 'Ms' of the 61 FS with insignia finished this way. NMF rims would have provide too much work even for 56th FG standards, but this is nothing more than my private supposition.

The blue, plum etc version of 61 FS camouflage is a long story and connected with many aircraft. Staying away of this conflict I will only point out that Britrish Night fits all the sides and ideas and is not lacking some supportive evidence.

There are other pics of Lanny's Bolt but concentrated on the the nose art area.

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Thank you Mike and Gonzo for taking the time to write down your answers.

So a K-14 Gunsight it is and the oxygen hose is most likely in place as well - have to come up with one to add to the cockpit. It is surprising that there are close to none period pictures of the cockpit around.

I've never met anybody questioning the light blue version of the insignia rims. Never met a hard proof for that either. Of course there are other 'Ms' of the 61 FS with insignia finished this way. NMF rims would have provide too much work even for 56th FG standards, but this is nothing more than my private supposition.

I asked because on the Techmod decal sheet for this aircraft, they provide the markings with silver and light blue rims.

Where have you seen other P-47Ms with light blue markings? I couldn't find any.

I am aware about the many debates regarding the black / Insignia blue / plum finishes of these aircraft. I am with Gonzo on this as I think British Night is a good choice. Actually, I will use Gunze C125 "Cowling Color" (Japanese anti glare paint) which is a black with a blue hue to it.

Cheers, Peter

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I'll list these two references for your use.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1129144219/Remnant+of+Elusive+Black+Paint+used+on+61st+FS+56th+FG+P-47M's+-+Photos

The model was made during WWII by a pilot who actually saw the aircraft. Note that it confirms the blue outline for the national insignia. HOWEVER,

photos in the following link shows that perhaps it was not common to all 61st Squadron aircraft.

http://p47.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=127214&ord=&page=1

Here the pilot says the aircraft were black. Some may question a pilot's memory after so long a time, but in this case, and seeing the model in the previous

link, I tend to believe him.

Gary

Edited by GAF
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I am talking about other 56th's P-47 M with insignia painted HV Z_ style. Black and white pics, so no hard evidence of any kind. Only information that Lanny's Bolt was not the single one here. I found them on my HD and in some books, but they should be in the net somewhere.

Edited by greatgonzo
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I'm baaack!

Found this period color photo....sure does look like night overall, as you can just make out the different shade and circular part of the national insignia...here's a dumb question- was the paint the "smooth" or the "sooty" black? I would think smooth, as wouldn't a dead matte finish tend to negate the higher top speed the M enjoyed over its siblings? Of course, many of the 56th Jugs were waxed and polished by their ground crews for maximum performance, so this might be a moot point. In any event, they sure are pretty and distinctive airplanes!

Mike

http://www.ww2incolor.com/us-air-force/hv-k+sue.html

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Thank you Mike and Gonzo for taking the time to write down your answers.

So a K-14 Gunsight it is and the oxygen hose is most likely in place as well - have to come up with one to add to the cockpit. It is surprising that there are close to none period pictures of the cockpit around.

I asked because on the Techmod decal sheet for this aircraft, they provide the markings with silver and light blue rims.

Where have you seen other P-47Ms with light blue markings? I couldn't find any.

I am aware about the many debates regarding the black / Insignia blue / plum finishes of these aircraft. I am with Gonzo on this as I think British Night is a good choice. Actually, I will use Gunze C125 "Cowling Color" (Japanese anti glare paint) which is a black with a blue hue to it.

Cheers, Peter

FWIW. On a 1/72 P47M I built a year or so ago I used Tamiya Rubber Black, XF-85 which was just "off" black enough to match the references given elsewhere.

HTH John H.

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Bob King, a great modeler and former hobby shop owner here in Texas, demonstrated several years back the use of Alclad smoke over silver or aluminum paint when he was building a P-61. Basically, he kept making light passes with the smoke over the aluminum undercoat until he got the coverage he wanted. The results were amazing, as the parts he painted looked like real metal, not painted plastic, the way most overall black aircraft models end up looking. I would think Tamiya smoke would also work just as well.

Mike

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Gary, thank you for listing the two links - interesting reading.

FWIW. On a 1/72 P47M I built a year or so ago I used Tamiya Rubber Black, XF-85 which was just "off" black enough to match the references given elsewhere.

HTH John H.

May work as well, but maybe the "off black" is more into the grey than the blue.

Thanks too Mike for posting the link to the colour picture. In regards to the method using smoke to get a metal like look, I am not sure if this is appropriate on these black P-47Ms as the black looks very flat to me on most of the pictures.

The fact that the paint looks so flat makes it rather unlikely that any ordinary paint has been used (automotive, hardware store ...), making British Night a likely possibility.

Cheers, Peter

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Peter,

you might check the Vector corrected cockpit sidewalls for Tamiya P-47D - it offers the correct late D radio setup and has a nice oxygen hose.

Vedran

The milimeter brigade

Thanks Vedran. The Vector set looks good, but it is too late to use it for my build. Ended up making my own oxygen house.

The first point is that any story of painting aircraft overall in non-aircraft paint lacks credibility. The second is that this was five years into the war - just how was any local garage going to have enough paint for a squadron of P-47s?

Can't argue with this.

I used a blue tinted black on my 61st FS model......

thanks

Mike

British Night apparently does has a blue hue to it.

Thanks Phil, but the link was already posted further up.

Engaging 'Smug Mode' as Kryten might say.....

thanks

Mike

Sorry, I don't get this.

One other question. What are appropriate external loads carried on the P-47M. Only auxiliary tanks (what size?) and or bombs as well? Fuselage and wings hard points?

Thanks, Peter

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@ Basilisk :

Kryten is a Mechanoid character on a British comedy/Science-Fiction show called Red Dwarf

you can see various episodes and clips on youtube.

Edited by PFlint
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  • 1 month later...

Thanks Vedran. The Vector set looks good, but it is too late to use it for my build. Ended up making my own oxygen house.

Can't argue with this.

British Night apparently does has a blue hue to it.

Thanks Phil, but the link was already posted further up.

Sorry, I don't get this.

One other question. What are appropriate external loads carried on the P-47M. Only auxiliary tanks (what size?) and or bombs as well? Fuselage and wings hard points?

Thanks, Peter

I've never seen a P-47M with anything other than drop tanks. Rockets are certainly a big no-no. Pics I've seen include 'clean' aircraft with and without the wing pylons, the flat 150 gal tank on the centre, flat 150 gal tanks on the wing racks and I've seen a pic of one with what looks like 150 gal tanks on all stations. Google P-47M and look at the pics, ignore people's models as many people (as with other P-47 models) seem to load them up with everything, even when the loads aren't applicable to what's being modelled. Just look at pics of the real aircraft taken in service and you'll see what I mean.

thanks

Mike

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Thanks Ron. I have the cockpit finished now and that what I came up with.

P-47M-421108-61.jpg

P-47M-421108-62.jpg

It is the Aires resin cockpit which comes with a nice representation of the K-14 gunsight. The only challenge was to fit it to the cockpit so I scratch built some brackets to attach to. The green is darker in real.

Cheers, Peter

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As regards 61st FS M colours.

I'm sitting looking at a sizeable piece of one right now.

It ain't purple, it ain't plum,

It's plain old flat black, (need to compare it to a sample of RAF night) painted over bare metal.

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As regards 61st FS M colours.

I'm sitting looking at a sizeable piece of one right now.

It ain't purple, it ain't plum,

It's plain old flat black, (need to compare it to a sample of RAF night) painted over bare metal.

I am myself in the black camp as I think they took what was available and had better things to do than mixing some odd hues.

Do you have a picture of the piece? Not that I doubt you that it is black, but it would be interesting to see it.

Basilisk,

Awesome cockpit! Can't wait to see the rest!

Mike

Thank you Mike. You can follow the WIP here.

As I am getting closer to paint this model, I do have some other questions.

I have decals showing the red fuselage letters HV-Z surrounded in silver and in white. What was more likely correct. It could have been left in silver when painting the black, but that would need some tricky masking. Adding white would be easier to do.

I will have no hardpoints under the wing on this aircraft (I have seen pictures with and without, but it looks to me that the picture of HV-Z doesn't have them fitted. But I would like to add a drop tank under the fuselage. Which one would be correct for the P-47M?

Thanks for any comments.

Cheers, Peter

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