KC-135 v 707-320B

[DrewP]

Hello, all!

I have become very invested in building a 1/72 707, most preferably the Heller Humbrol kit (I've heard quite a few good things about their kits, and seeing as they are only around 15-25 years old, didn't think they would be too expensive), but have come up empty-handed. The few kits I manage to bid for on eBay far exceed my expectations in being affordable! I witnessed one just a month ago go for $230!! However, some fortune has shown upon me. I purchased an Italeri KC-135 Stratotanker not long ago. I am not familiar with the changes (besides different engines and widening the fuselage a bit) that would be needed to change it from a Stratotanker to an Intercontinental. Would I be better off converting it, or should I invest some extra money into the Heller kit to save time? All suggestions or a list of changes needed and places where I could purchase some of the correct engines would be greatly appreciated!

All the best,

Drew

Edited January 17, 2016 by DrewP

[Jessica]

The wing is utterly different, not to mention the fact that the KC-135 doesn't have passenger windows, the entry door on the lower left side of the nose isn't on the 707, of course the refuelling boom and gondola aren't there. Then there are the stiffening bands on the rear fuselage, the fin-top refuelling light, refuelling lights under the forward fuselage and the short span horizontal stabilisers. There's a reason that Boeing called it the 717.

Here's a guide to 707 wing types. The KC-135 has the first wing type. Some people have kitbashed the Heller and the KC-135 to make a 707-100. Here's a link to the Detail & Scale volume on the 707, which will tell you much.

[DrewP]

The wing is utterly different, not to mention the fact that the KC-135 doesn't have passenger windows, the entry door on the lower left side of the nose isn't on the 707, of course the refuelling boom and gondola aren't there. Then there are the stiffening bands on the rear fuselage, the fin-top refuelling light, refuelling lights under the forward fuselage and the short span horizontal stabilisers. There's a reason that Boeing called it the 717.

Here's a guide to 707 wing types. The KC-135 has the first wing type. Some people have kitbashed the Heller and the KC-135 to make a 707-100. Here's a link to the Detail & Scale volume on the 707, which will tell you much.

I was going to do it the easy way and leave out the windows and have decals instead. I'm pretty sure (I'm not looking at the kit at the moment) that the boom and gondola are separate pieces that I can leave off (or cut and sand them off??) and are the lights rather large or just small lights that can be covered up and/or changed without much work? I'm quite certain from my knowledge that the kit's entry door on the nose can be covered easily, and i might possible rescribe the panel lines if needed? There's also a large cargo door on the left side that I can do the same to. I'm having trouble determining the dimensions of the cabin of both, and what those measurements convert to in 1/72 scale (how much I need to widen the fuselage). I've printed out two pictures of those wing designed on that Airliners.net post (thanks!) and maybe I can try to figure something out? I would have to fill/cut/sand (whatever needs to be done to eliminate the pylon attachments), move them to the correct area, rescribe the panels, and thin out the wing to account for that "kink", and the curve on the tip is different than the -120. Is that correct? I'm not sure if I need to widen or thin the wings... Thanks for the help so far!!

All the best,

Drew

[Eric Mc]

The KC-135 family and the 707 family are rather loosely connected. Apart from the wing variations, the fuselage diameter of the KC-135 is quite a bit narrower than the 707. I don't see how that could be corrected easily.

Boeing originally intended that the 707 fuselage would have a similar diameter to that of the 367-80 prototype but when Douglas announced their DC-8, Boeing decided they had better offer a cabin width at least as wide as the DC-8. From that point the 707 and the C-135 design began to diverge.

[Eht1418]

Long story short, there's no practical way you can turn an Italeri/ AMT KC-135 into a 707-320. If can't find or afford a Heller 707, try a Heller USAF or NATO E-3A/B AWACS (with the older engines, not the CFM 56s).

[Alex1978]

If you are able to purchase an AWACS version of the Heller kit,then you can turn it into a 707-300 series.Just make sure you get the one with the Pratt&Whitney engines.

The kit has no cabin windows either but with decals this is no big issue.The rest of the kit is near the same as the official "civil" version of the Heller kit.

The AWACS kit shows up sometimes on Ebay and is not as high priced as the civil one.

[bzn20]

It would be a scratch build..The 135 fuse isn't a 707 fuse,not just the width,the shape.The nose looks similar and thats where it ends.Its all different. Its close to the Boeing 367-80 which wasn't the 707 prototype that Boeing had it painted as.

I think you'd be better off to Buy the 707 kit than try to convert a 135.

[DrewP]

Thank you all for the suggestions! I guess I'm better off checking online or searchin some stores for that old kit. I've noticed that sometimes the military variant of some planes go for less in a larger scale, which I find odd. Anyway, I'll look out for an AWACS. Thanks!!

All the best,

Drew

[Romeo Alpha Yankee]

Not sure if previously mentioned (I only scanned the previous comments) but the 707 fuselage is longer than the KC-135.

I built a B707 from the E-3 kit. Any E-3 kit will give you the JT-3D engines you need for the 707 including the E-3D boxing from Airfix and E-3F boxing from Heller. Heller also released an E-3A with just the JT-3Ds

Here is my B707 built from an Airfix E-3D kit

...and in company of a couple of AMT KC-135s

Ray

[bzn20]

Very nice Trojan. Like those.

[MikeW]

Awesomeness indeed.

[DrewP]

Not sure if previously mentioned (I only scanned the previous comments) but the 707 fuselage is longer than the KC-135.

I built a B707 from the E-3 kit. Any E-3 kit will give you the JT-3D engines you need for the 707 including the E-3D boxing from Airfix and E-3F boxing from Heller. Heller also released an E-3A with just the JT-3Ds

Here is my B707 built from an Airfix E-3D kit

...and in company of a couple of AMT KC-135s

That's what I want to do! (Except as an airline) Those are beautiful models! There's an Airfix E-3D on evilBay going for $89 (not the most reasonable price, in my opinion) but there's not many other options. I was hesitant to consider it, as the boxing had the different CFM56s. Is that kit a lot like the 707? I read somewhere that Airfix got the moulds for the Heller 707, so I would assume it's about the same thing? Love those planes!!! (What program, like imgur or flickr, do you use to upload your pictures? I use imgur and they take up a huge amount of space in the post... You can see in any thread I start my pictures are huge.. Any help?)

All the best,

Drew

Edited January 18, 2016 by DrewP

[Jessica]

The Airfix Sentry kit is the Heller military 707 (no windows) with extra CFM-56 engines. You still get the 707 engines in the box.

[Romeo Alpha Yankee]

Drew,

The E-3D has both CFMs and JT-3s in the kit. Yes is is very similar to the B707 kit with the extras to make the AEW aircraft and the cabin windows filled. It builds nicely into a B707. Here is a build thread for the B707

Wow! $89. I have not spent more then $40 on my E-3s (all second hand) I have 3-4 in the stash at the moment for various military B707 type aircraft, USAF E-3A, RAF E-3D, USAF E-6B, USAF E-8C and I also have a Heller B707 to do in QANTAS colours (been picking them up all over the place for a few years now, in a lot of cases in the right place at the right time. As I recall the B707 only cost me $20 12 months ago.)

I use Photobucket and resize my images to 1024 x 780 pixels before uploading them. I have MS Office and use Office Picture Manager to resize the images. I am sure there are other programs you can resize images with out there.

Which country are you in Drew?

If in Australia for second hand kits, are you aware of the 'Model Nerds' website. They deal in second hand kits and are based in Melbourne and QLD (I think). They don't have one listed at the moment but you could email them to see if they can keep an eye out for you. I know a few people who have done this with other kits.

Ray

[DrewP]

I'm located in the U.S. and have never heard of "Model Nerds" (although I am looking it up right now) and they do seem to have quite a lot of items in stock! I've emailed a guy who owns a hobby shop up in Victoria, BC. When I was there seven years ago I got a couple nice Revell kits, and his shop is stock full of nice large kits, RC planes, other oddities... I asked him to keep an eye out, I'm trying to reach everyone I've known that may have any idea where to get one xD I even told my brother in Alaska to look for anything like it. I guess it's something that isn't going to be found easily...

All the best,

Drew

[skippiebg]

Here's one someone did earlier...

http://airlinercafe.com/page.php?id=73

[Nigel Bunker]

Drew

Just one piece of advice - persist in looking for Heller 707/E-3 kits. They are to be found at reasonable prices. I picked up my last two for £8.00 (Charity/Thrift shop) and £25.00 (Model shop disposing of old stock). But it took me several years to find them.

Alternatively wait 20 years and make an offer to my executors (assuming I never got round to making them).

Regards

Nigel

[DrewP]

Drew

Just one piece of advice - persist in looking for Heller 707/E-3 kits. They are to be found at reasonable prices. I picked up my last two for £8.00 (Charity/Thrift shop) and £25.00 (Model shop disposing of old stock). But it took me several years to find them.

Alternatively wait 20 years and make an offer to my executors (assuming I never got round to making them).

Regards

Nigel

Ha! I will definitely be vigilant. It seems luck isn't something that usually befalls me, and most of the time the good kits are found in small little corner shops in Nowhere, USA. I will most surely ask around the model shop next time I'm up there... Do you or anyone else happen to have any sprue shots of the pieces? I wanted to know if that antenna above the cockpit is moulded on there or not.

All the best,

Drew

[Panoz]

I read somewhere that Airfix got the moulds for the Heller 707, so I would assume it's about the same thing?

No idea where you read this but it's not true. Heller still has the tooling for the 707 (and the newly tooled parts for the CFM56s in the Airfix E-3D kit were done by them).

They may reissue it one day. (If they ever get out of the deep they are in)

Edited January 18, 2016 by Panoz

[Romeo Alpha Yankee]

Ha! I will definitely be vigilant. It seems luck isn't something that usually befalls me, and most of the time the good kits are found in small little corner shops in Nowhere, USA. I will most surely ask around the model shop next time I'm up there... Do you or anyone else happen to have any sprue shots of the pieces? I wanted to know if that antenna above the cockpit is moulded on there or not.

All the best,

Drew

Drew, there are no antennas moulded to the fuselage, you get a whole bunch to add on a separate sprue in the E-3 kit. If you google 'Airfix E-3D Sentry Review' and check the images you will find a few sprue shots.

A shot from my build

Ray

[Alex1978]

Ha! I will definitely be vigilant. It seems luck isn't something that usually befalls me, and most of the time the good kits are found in small little corner shops in Nowhere, USA. I will most surely ask around the model shop next time I'm up there... Do you or anyone else happen to have any sprue shots of the pieces? I wanted to know if that antenna above the cockpit is moulded on there or not.

All the best,

Drew

Hi Drew,

Here are some sprue shots of my Heller AWACS version.Hope this helps...

I guess the main parts of all 707/E3/AWACS versions are the same,so either one of these kits can be converted to an airliner.

I also found a complete set of Pratt & Whitney 707 engines in my spare parts box,so in case you find a kit and need P&W engines....

Alex

[DrewP]

No idea where you read this but it's not true. Heller still has the tooling for the 707 (and the newly tooled parts for the CFM56s in the Airfix E-3D kit were done by them).

They may reissue it one day. (If they ever get out of the deep :poo-poo: they are in)

I found it in another BM post: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34408-boeing-707-in-172/

@TrojanThunder & @Alex1978 Thank you for the shots! I assumed from the box that it was moulded onto the fuselage. Thank you, both, for the pictures!!

All the best,

Drew

[Eht1418]

Here are some old pics of my Heller AWACS and AF-1 707, and AMT KC-135A. They're all in storage now.

[DrewP]

There's an E-3 from Airfix on eBay at the moment. It comes without instructions and the pictures aren't very well done and I'm unsure as to whether it has the correct engines (the description says some parts may be missing, but doesn't list them).... And would anyone know where to get some good decals with a cheat line (preferably, something like Qantas or Pan Am) for the kit? And just confirming the E-3 is, basically, a -320? Thank you all so much for the help, ideas, pictures - the BM community is the best!!!

All the best,

Drew

Edited January 21, 2016 by DrewP

[skippiebg]

Drew, on ebay you can send a message to sellers asking for clarifications.

Engines aside, though, missing instructions are a cross to bear with the big 707. They comprise an A4 booklet of some heft, and trial-and-erroring the flimsy bits of a USD 80-plus kit would be a bit like Lindbergh setting off across the Pond with the vague intention of not falling asleep

All Airfix E-3 kits should have the Pratt & Whitney JT3D engines as part of the package, unless they "went astray" with prior owners. I wouldn't blame said prior owners too much, as the P&Ws are quite wonderful. The Airfix afterthought CFM56s are only so-so.

Yes, the E-3 is essentially a Model 320C Advanced.

Re. decals, 26 Decals and F-DCAL will definitely scale-up their 1/144 designs to 1/72 for certain. I also think many US names like Draw Decal will do that. Ask them directly. Prices are likely to surprise you, simply because twice the linear size is four times the area. And that's for starters, because decal makers generally base their designs on a set 1/144 kit and iinstead of tailoring it to the big Heller, they would have to print (and charge for) some extra cheatline in case of shortfalls (stated scales are often well off).

I don't know which side of the transparent/decal windows divide you are on (it is a bit like the Catholic/Protestant divide in 14th Century Europe, or the Sunni/Shia divide in today's Middle East, only much, much worse!). If you want transparent windows (and you have to admit it is pretty damned hard to fool folks with decals in 1/72 scale, unless they are hard of seeing, are suffering advanced mental feebleness, or have drunk very thirstily of the proverbial bongwater within the past half hour or so), I'd counsel patience. A passenger Heller 707 is bound to turn-up. They had transparent windows and plenty of colourful releases like TWA (twin globes), Lufthansa and Air France (chevron). I have a pax Heller 707 in "ze cellar", not for building, but for referring to when struggling with Minicraft 1/144 scale so-called 707s. But that's another story...

Edited January 21, 2016 by skippiebg