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Fiat 806 -"Gangshow"- build album.


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Hello guys,

You sleep on and, thinking again to all these deep changes (the whole kit is wrong), considering also that I write an article not supposed to come in such complications:

1) I will surely make longer transmission arms: this should be a bit complicated but doable. Both legs on the model are too short compared with reality.

2) I will surely build my front wheels diagonally, as they were (doable too)

3) If possible, if not too difficult, I'll try to decrease a bit the height of the car, from the rear to the grille. My grille had 56 strips instead of 52, I can cut it with care, decrease it of a few mm and in the same time, get the good number of strips.

For all other changes, I let that to more skilled modelers.

Thank you very much Roy for your hints, I bought the book too with your link.  :)

Steve, we did not choose this situation with Andi and other pessimists. We all know Andi is a great modeler, but IMHO this does not allow him to talk the way he did on this thread. I am very desappointed by such an attitude and now, we must turn the page and go on. As we say in french, "les chiens aboient et la caravane passe".

All the best to all

Olivier

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Hello Thriumphfan,following your own descriptions you are very interested in historical cars. What do you mean by that?Do you like those cars, because they are historical and it doesn´t really matter,if they are historically correct?

If you would buy a Jaguar E-type kit for instance and discover,that it´s nose is 20 per Cent too short,would you say: OK, that´s fine,it Looks similar enough for me and as Long as my model gets a brilliant paintwork,fine wheathering,,an super -detailled engine and respoked wheels,I am happy with my result?

This 806 kit offers an unique opportunity to unravel the secrets of a legendary car.

You don´t Need to like members like me who are searching for truth,but at least you should Show some respect for our struggling.

As I can see, we are both grown -up men and there´s really no Need to behave like a Little child

Best regards  Hannes

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sdCw0b.jpg

 

J5CdZ2.jpg4v0B1I.jpg

 

I made a superposition at the scale of my model on the top view ans measures I did yesterday. This shows:

- the rear transmission arm should be around 6,5 mm longer on each side

- the frame should be a little wider going front (it is good on the rear)

- my steering column is not good, while I made it exactly following the instruction sheet: the steering wheel goes too far behind and the column axis makes a wrong angle

 

I did not measure yet the lenght for the front arm transmission.

 

Except that, measures are finally not so bad on top view.

 

I will try to make the same for the side view.

 

John, if you could find back the front view (not the wrong one that 's at the end the instruction sheet) you talked me about on MP, it would be great! 

 

Hope this will help...

 

P.S: you see, Steve, that's the way I try to go on, with good willing and spirit of sharing. But be sure I will go on and, probably with compromises, I will end this amazing but so exciting build !

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Gents we don't shut down real modelling threads at 40 pages if the are contributing to the site. On the whole this is so there are no issues with it. I commend the poster and others for not generally rising to the bait of certainly one individual who will be spoken to.

 

As there generally seems to be interest in this thread and subject I would advise to keep going and keep posting.

 

Julien

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Hello Julien,

I read with real pleasure your post. I totally agree with you, and will avoid any reply to new negative or sarcastic comments. If some people don't like the thread, they can just avoid going on it.

You can count on me, I ´ll do my best to make it live, with passion, sometimes with disagree, but always with respect and positive mind.

Long live this thread, long live Britmodeller !

Olivier 

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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I for one think that this thread should be returned to the Original builders like Little Andy and companions.

 

The way it is developping now is way over the top in my opinion,a model is never a 100% copy of it's Original,builders like Andy understood this,others loose themselfs in blueprints that are (probably) wrong and try to take measurements from old and blurry photographs taken from different angles.

 

As owner of the kit and an incomplete Protar one i have been following what Andy and his fellow builders did with the model and i liked it a lot,the way things are developping now give little or no room to the Original builders.

 

Normally i only read on this forum with great interest and pleasure,just wanted to get this of my chest.

 

 

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@jack58 thank you for your opinion. I remind you that I've not basing my research on blueprints but I've been trying to check which version (Drawing 1 or Drawing 2) seems to be more correct, based on the pictures. Everything I've found thus far points to the drawing NOT used by Protar being the better one. I disagree with you that the photos are blurry, they could have been in a much worse way. I'm happy with the source material that's available. Back in the day when Protar made their molds, the kit designers didn't have the computer aids we do now. They only had the same images as we have at our disposal. So why do you, and are others, have such an aversion to this new research? Are you afraid of the conclusions? Do you fear these conclusions will make you love your kit less?

 

Well, they shouldn't! In itself it is a great model. 

 

a model is never a 100% copy of it's Original

 

That is true. But why do you blame us for trying to get it as close as possible?

 

Take a look at it in a simple way. There are two blueprints, drawing 1 and drawing 2. Their difference is significant, honestly. Have a good look at them and see for yourself. Now my question to you is: which one to use if you want to make a model of the Fiat 806? Should we use Drawing 1 just because Protar did so? I choose not to take that easy path. And each to his own.

 

I'm happy with the source material that's available.

 

As I have stated numerous times by now, there is nothing wrong with that. Really. Honestly. I'll follow each and every build in this thread, as I have. I don't think out of box-builds are less equal than partly scratched ones.  

 

i have been following what Andy and his fellow builders did with the model and i liked it a lot

 

Me too.

 

the way things are developping now give little or no room to the Original builders

 

How is that? Why don't they just post their status updates in the topic? Do they feel not welcome anymore in their own thread? I'd love to see updates from Andi, but he just stated he feels a persona non grata. Well, not by me at least and I don't see evidence anyone not welcoming his updates in the thread - started by himself. 

 

But if I may read your post in another way, you agree to my proposal to open up a separate detailing & scratchbuilding thread. That way there will be two threads, two lanes on one highway. One out-of-box building thread and one dedicated to amending the original kit and all research involved. All of this superdetailing chitchat could be in a separate thread that you, Andi and some others would never have to open. You could simply enjoy the original thread. Major visual updates from the scratchbuilders could be posted in the original thread. 

 

In the scratchbuilding thread we'd simply include an index to all relevant posts in the original thread. About steering wheel, about photogrammetry, about the louvres etc. etc. I'd be willing to make that index. 

 

Again... would that not be better for everyone? Instead of this discussion between the OOB-builders and 'researchers' / scratchbuilders going on and on? 

 

Your opinions, please! 

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Andi found a solution for himself, opening a separate build thread. I conclude he didn't feel for my alternative proposal for a separate detailing thread. Although I regret his step I respect Andi's decision and I will be following his new thread as I'm a fan of his work. 

 

As for all other builders who have contributed to the current thread, it can be established that there are those who like to see out of box-progress and who are really against elaborate diagnoses and scratchbuilding holdups.... and those whose modeling joy thrives on the latter. I'll therefore open a separate research and scratchbuilding thread, as at least Hannes and Olivier are interested in that (probably CrazyCrank and others as well) and to avoid further tension.

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Hello to everybody, who is interested,today I want to share with you my deliberations regarding the scratchbuild of the Radiator grill.

Because this could be the most scaring and challenging part of a reconstruction,it might be important to discuss this Topic now.

To build the Frame,we Need a frame- like underconstruction.This can be made out of a 2mm thick styrene plate.The outer line should be exactly like the shape of the grill.

Inside this plate we Need to cut out a similar,but smaller Piece,so we have this frame-like underconstruction with a ca. 5 mm wide border.

We can glue this pre-frame onto a small stiff plate, that can be removed later on.

For the Frame itself I would suggest a brass U-shaped Profile.(1.5  1.5 mmm)It should be elongated a bit by glueing a small stripe from an Aluminium plate on it´s backside.

Now we can glue this Profile onto our under-construction step by step with tiny Drops of super-glue.This means bend ,glue,bend,glue and so on.

The start and the end should be the middle of the bottom line.

Now the 2  cross-struts ,made out of a thin,but stable material(maybe polished or chromed)can be inserted into our Frame,,fixed by some glue and maybe kept in distance by two tiny inlays.

For the grating nickel silver rods can be used (what size and how many can be discussed later on)

Now we Need a fine-lined mm-paper with the grill´s shape drawn on it covered with an opaque foil and glued onto a stable plate.

The next step is to cut out 2 times 3 pieces of duct tape.These pieces must have an exact size,so they don´t overlay the struts and the ending of our rods.These 3 pieces of duct tape must get glued on their backside somewhat onto the foil for keeping them in the right places.

Now we can lay our rods onto the the glue side of our duct tapes and hold them in place by glueing the other three pieces of tape to the opposite side.

Finally we can cut this grating construction to the required size and let them slip into our U-shaped Frame from the backside  after removing the ground plate .

It´s important to have contact with our struts.Maybe we can make a sandwich-like construction by glueing some other stripes under the struts and rods.

Now we can solder the rods into the Frame,so the tin flux fills the Ushaped Profile.

The sheet with the hole for the crank can get connected with the rods by soldering on it´s backside,so the rods covering the hole can be removed.

The following steps like  bringing the Frame to it´s final form or giving it a chromium look can be discussed later on.

Every contribution regarding bettering or siplifying this construction is highly welcomed!

Many greetings!  Hannes
 

.

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10 hours ago, Hannes said:

Hello Thriumphfan,following your own descriptions you are very interested in historical cars. What do you mean by that?Do you like those cars, because they are historical and it doesn´t really matter,if they are historically correct?

If you would buy a Jaguar E-type kit for instance and discover,that it´s nose is 20 per Cent too short,would you say: OK, that´s fine,it Looks similar enough for me and as Long as my model gets a brilliant paintwork,fine wheathering,,an super -detailled engine and respoked wheels,I am happy with my result?

This 806 kit offers an unique opportunity to unravel the secrets of a legendary car.

You don´t Need to like members like me who are searching for truth,but at least you should Show some respect for our struggling.

As I can see, we are both grown -up men and there´s really no Need to behave like a Little child

Best regards  Hannes

I don't usually respond to posts such as this but I would like to point out a few things. I believe I bowed out of this thread/discussion reasonably gracefully? It has taken a different direction to the original - in my opinion.

I enjoy making models and will make some effort to correct defficiencies in a lot of the kits I build. It is true, I do have a great passion for Classic cars and I own a Historic British sportscar (I am able to make the distinction between a model and the real thing)

The main reason I have stopped following is that I find no meaningful delight in trying to piece together 'truth' as it has been called from grainy, 90 year old images that seem to contradict each other at every turn.

Please allow me to make that decision without resorting to name calling. 

There is no like or dislike here, at least not on a personal level as you seem to suggest. I re-read my post and see no evidence of that? 

If hindsight was foresight, it may have been a good move to start another 'truth' thread several weeks ago. There was plenty of inference from the initial posters that the lack of reliable reference material would make their builds a 'nod' to the original subject, maybe you didn't pick up on that though.

I wish you guys the best of luck with your endevours but, it really doesn't get my boat afloat and I am never going to apologise for having a different view on my model making efforts.

 

All the best, Steve.

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Let's keep the community together guys! 

 

1 hour ago, triumphfan said:

I am never going to apologise for having a different view on my model making efforts.

 

Nor should you. Nobody is absolutely right and nobody is absolutely wrong in this thread, we're all different people with different interests and we each enjoy the hobby in a different way. 

 

I hope we'll find a way we can all enjoy this wonderful subject, the Fiat 806 :)

Edited by Roy vd M.
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Well having seen some of the recent posts I now know that I have made the right decision to 'bale out' of the thread. As a relative newcomer to this size of build, I was thoroughly enjoying the tips and advice I was getting from the more experienced builders - that came to an end when the drive for historical accuracy excluded everything else. I am not going to explain my stance as a 'modeller' other than to say that I continuously strive to improve my techniques - the target is ALWAYS to produce work that pleases ME! (I'm not too proud to accept Kit manufacturers' box specifications).

Good luck with your collective builds and new thread(s).

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@Banny it is always sad when a modeler gets demotivated by other modelers. 

 

That sometimes happens for example when reading through a modeling magazine... you see those beautiful, extraordinary models and read the story behind them. It seems as if the builder didn't encounter one single flaw in the kit during his build, nor did the builder make one single mistake apparently. I'm not so sure that would be a realistic thought though. I bet that modeler made a lot of mistakes and did a lot of correcting to come to his end result. But the average reader of the magazine article (especially those who are new to the hobby) feel they will never attain such a result, and I read comments that some modelers feel so demotivated that they decided to give up on the hobby. They felt they would never be good enough! This is exactly the reason why I* write down all my (numerous) errors in my build topics. It's also probably more fun to read.. and topic followers probably learn more by seeing my mistakes than looking at the 'glamorous' successes. 

 

The photogrammetry and other research, like in this thread, can get a similar side effect... for example, on a Belgian forum where I've been posting my McLaren updates I started receiving fewer and fewer comments when going on and on about the photogrammetry. At one point someone I deeply respect commented "This is where modeling stops for me". I'm always in for criticism and I took this reaction very seriously. So I opened a poll asking the followers of my topic if they a) found the research interesting; b ) they didn't care; c) they found it detrimental to their joy of the hobby; or d) they would check again after me having finalized the research. 

 

Interestingly, there were two people who felt deprived of some of their modeling joy / inspiration, eight people found it very interesting and a couple of people didn't care. I told them I respect all opinions and welcomed the two who were unhappy to contact me per PM to share ideas on how to make the thread more comfortable to them. There was one guy who said "they are free to not read the thread" but I really think he missed the point there. 

 

This is why I think it is a good thing we'll have a separate research thread. Every modelers needs to be respected equally and, to be frank, I somehow agree with those who said this thread has gone too much into detail. 

 

*By this I am not saying that I am a good modeler! Actually I do not think I am, but that's a different subject.

Edited by Roy vd M.
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Dear Banny, you must always be Aware,that you are the Artist,who determines,which way to go.Of Course you can learn a lot from other modellers,but that´s not the Point,because relying too much on other people´s work won´t make you happy.Try to build your models with Passion and the skills will follow automatically!   Many greetings!  Hannes

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Ok guys I finally got the new thread ready, see here. To make it easy on myself (after many hours of preparation of creating the index I hope I may :) ) I simply quote myself: 

 

This thread was started intending to unite all those interested in building the Fiat 806. It is to be considered as a sideway running parallel to the great

 Fiat 806 Gangshow build album as well as Little Andi's magnificent build report. At one point in the Gangshow thread the sentiment was that there was too little building and too much detail research going on, a sentiment that I understand and share. Modeling has to be fun for all. In the current thread there will be (at least I hope people will post) extensive research on the original car, photographs, drawings, literature and archives. Beside that the thread will feature scratchbuilding progress based on the findings. Perhaps in the future there could be exchanges of resin molded scratch parts, just like Vontrips kindly did with the tyres (for example: body panels / grille?)

 

Whenever there will be major build updates (for example, a finished engine, or finished interior, or weathering progress etc.) then I hope and trust everyone will appreciate those build updates not be posted only in this topic, but also in the Gangshow build album. 

 

Hopefully all Fiat 806 builders will be happy with this solution and hopefully the Gangshow build album will become prosperous with many contributors again. And hopefully, out-of box-builders or those who don't want to go all the way will feel welcome in this topic (if only to take a peek to see what's going on) just like those who like severe scratchbuilding and research hope to remain welcome in the Gangshow topic.

 

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15 hours ago, Hannes said:

To build the Frame,we Need a frame- like underconstruction.This can be made out of a 2mm thick styrene plate.The outer line should be exactly like the shape of the grill.

Inside this plate we Need to cut out a similar,but smaller Piece,so we have this frame-like underconstruction with a ca. 5 mm wide border.

We can glue this pre-frame onto a small stiff plate, that can be removed later on.

For the Frame itself I would suggest a brass U-shaped Profile.(1.5  1.5 mmm)It should be elongated a bit by glueing a small stripe from an Aluminium plate on it´s backside.

Now we can glue this Profile onto our under-construction step by step with tiny Drops of super-glue.This means bend ,glue,bend,glue and so on.

The start and the end should be the middle of the bottom line.

Now the 2  cross-struts ,made out of a thin,but stable material(maybe polished or chromed)can be inserted into our Frame,,fixed by some glue and maybe kept in distance by two tiny inlays.

For the grating nickel silver rods can be used (what size and how many can be discussed later on)

Now we Need a fine-lined mm-paper with the grill´s shape drawn on it covered with an opaque foil and glued onto a stable plate.

The next step is to cut out 2 times 3 pieces of duct tape.These pieces must have an exact size,so they don´t overlay the struts and the ending of our rods.These 3 pieces of duct tape must get glued on their backside somewhat onto the foil for keeping them in the right places.

Now we can lay our rods onto the the glue side of our duct tapes and hold them in place by glueing the other three pieces of tape to the opposite side.

Finally we can cut this grating construction to the required size and let them slip into our U-shaped Frame from the backside  after removing the ground plate .

It´s important to have contact with our struts.Maybe we can make a sandwich-like construction by glueing some other stripes under the struts and rods.

Now we can solder the rods into the Frame,so the tin flux fills the Ushaped Profile.

The sheet with the hole for the crank can get connected with the rods by soldering on it´s backside,so the rods covering the hole can be removed.

The following steps like  bringing the Frame to it´s final form or giving it a chromium look can be discussed later on.

Every contribution regarding bettering or siplifying this construction is highly welcomed!

Hello Hannes,

I will do just 1 suggestion: JOIN PHOTOS

I don't know if it's the same for the others readers, but, me, honestly, I just can't read such a post up to the end, it's much too abstract. One more time (but I will never say that too much), 1 photo with comments is better than 1000 words.

I am well placed to know it takes time, but is you want us to understand et to keep attention on what you say, there's no other solution.

Excuse my poor manners

Very friendly

Olivier

 

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LgLgnn.jpg

 

Hello guys,

 

I had bought the proof (see above) that 24B needed to be longer (6,5 mm). I have added pieces of cluster (right word?) to extend it. Now, it's correct. Here is an example of modif not very difficult but that will make a nearer from truth model.

 

Roy, I posted here because I don't want this Gangshow to die, but I don't mind you to put in on the new thread you want to make. I am just not sure this new thread is stilll necessary, as Andi created his one... It would mean 3 threads for the same subject, isn't it too much??

 

All the best

 

Olivier

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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Dear members of this thread,

I inform you that, from now, I stop posting on this Gangshow. Independant circumstances of my will made that you have now 2 threads on the same subject: Andi's one and the one Roy created yesterday, on which some modelers try to search for truth regarding this legendary car. I will post on Roy's thread because I think 3 threads would really be too much, but, personally, I think we could have been going on this one, from the moment Andi had his own...

So, if you want to dive in the mad adventure with Roy, CC, Hannes, Vontrips and me, go on : 806: research and findings (maybe the title will evolve...)

All the best

Olivier

Edited by Olivier de St Raph
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.......................................... And to everyone else .............................. I'm so very, VERY sorry ... I tried my best - honestly, I did, but the thread has been left hanging and broken.

 

I felt I had no option but to leave and now at the last can't help but feel I've let folk down.

 

 

........................................ Sorry guys.

 

 

 

 

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Andi I sincerely hope you'll consider merging your new thread with the current... I think almost everyone who is a Fiat 806 fan on this forum would love to see that. 

 

Now that all research and more or less radical scratchbuilding will run parallel to this Gangshow thread (or that's the idea) I would love to see the original 'gang' rejoin and resume the discussion, talking about building the kit, painting, weathering et cetera., in this central topic -the way you originally intended. 

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