Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Hello Hannes, Thanks for your compliments. About the "screen", I had an accurate look at the enlargement I posted (see above) of the steering wheel and this document shows that the screen is situated between the spokes and the hub, so I placed it there. As I said before, I am satisfied now of my steering wheel, including the screen and this part is over for me. Best regards Olivier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) Sorry Olivier, but Hannes is correct! The screen should be under the spokes...you can see a high contrast shadow in the spoke edges. Looks good though...I'd be tempted to leave it as is! Sorry I've not been keeping up with this thread, but been occupied with a scratchbuild project. Edited October 28, 2016 by vontrips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) On 26/10/2016 at 6:53 AM, Olivier de St Raph said: Dear Hannes and John I don't understand. On this reference document, I see clearly the spoke interrupted by the screen's rod. If the screen was behind, the screen 's rod would be interrupted. All the best Olivier Edited October 28, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 From the images I 've seen I take it that the outer ring stepped over the spokes. Imagine an 'n' shape step in profile!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Sorry guys, but on this picture, it is obvious for me that the screen is not behind the spoke... I checked that with care before making my screen. Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 In my opinion John is rght . It´s a cramp constructon that fixes the Screen to the spokes. Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Ok I understand what you mean, and maybe you are right. The screen's rod would make a slight recess at the spoke's level. I can modify my steering wheel, with the "screen" behind, but are you sure of that? do you have another picture or any document that would confirm your point of view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) Olivier, afraid you have focused on the most deceptive part of the photo! By shear bad luck, the lines are on the same plane, due to the camera angle. Check again the spoke opposite (nearest the camera) and the step is significant! Also check the shadows on the other two spokes; they are very dark. If they were behind the screen they would be the same shade of grey as the very dark areas we can see under the dashboard through the screen, which are grey due to screen mesh, oil mist etc. Edited October 28, 2016 by vontrips 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 True that, if on the other spoke, it seems obvious that the screen's rod is front, on the lower one, it is different: it seems that there is this slight recess which would mean the screen is behind and that you are right. Is it on this picture that, Hannes, you made your opinion, or do you have another document that would confirm? Anyway, now, I am convinced so I will change my steering wheel. Definitely, the Boileau sentence (see above) is more than never topical!! Thank you both for this subtle but important correction, and good night to all, hope I will not have nightmares... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Sweet dreams Olivier! Another point to note; the shadow of the hub on the screen - note the shadow is wider than on the spokes? It means the screen is further away from hub than the spokes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 (edited) Well observed John. The first time you told me about the shadow, I did not understand (my english is not too bad but not excellent and I sometimes don't understand a comment or a hint, what is frustrating for me). So, the 54 E part was right with the recess, even if the part is much too thick. After having to reconsider the ignition wiring (happily, I made only 2...), it is another important detail that I have to change. This kit will make me mad, with all the time I spend on the job, on writing my article (with frequent changes) and writing and posting photos on this thread! But I must say that in the same time, I never had so much pleasure with a building. The search for truth, so difficult (I think about Icare, who burnt his wings wanting to approach the sun (the truth))), the many challenges this kit occurs, and something very thrilling: when you are the first on the net (probably) to "re-spoke" the radiator grille, or to redo the steering wheel, you feel a bit like the first men walking on the moon! You could feel that too with your amazing tyres or your homemade hub! Have fun! Olivier Edited October 29, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph addition 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 That´s true Olivier, we are pioneers and there´s is still much to discover...Have a good time! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 (edited) Thanks Hannes, I apologize for needing so much time to admit the truth about the screen. You did not tell me if you made your opinion on this picture only or on another document. Anyway, thanks again, now I am on holiday in Italy, but I will make the correction on the steering wheel on tuesday (it won't be the first time...) It's very important for me to search the truth, because of the paper I have to write on TMMI. So, thanks again.. Have a nice week-end Olivier Edited October 29, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Dear Olivier, we only have those 7 ( or better 6,5) pictures .If I had a new document,I surely would share this with you all. It would be,like finding the holy grail.Have a nice time in Italy!Maybe you could find new material,beeing in the origin land of our car.Many greetings from Coburg! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 (edited) Dear Hannes, I am at Sanremo until tomorrow, but even if I had been at Torino, I am not sure at all I would have found something on the car. I just found a nice old photo of an old racing car (think it's a Bugatti) in a restaurant. There were people eating just under the photo, so I could not approach... if I go back in the restaurant tomorrow for lunch (I'll try to convince my wife!), I'll make a photo of it... just for fun! Good night to all Edited October 30, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph correction 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) Hello guys, I found this on the net. I don't know what to think about this cutaway picture. Some details are very good, as the sharpness of the calander, the number of spokes on the radiator grille (I counted them) etc. About the ignition wiring, you will notice the way on the left side. On the right side, the way is not clear, maybe because the drawer did not want to mask the distributor on the right side. The wires are thin, orange yellow. The frame is black. Tell me what you think about such a document. I found it mentioning "moteur fiat 806" on Google Images, I wanted to go further, I saw the image was coming from Wheelsage.org, but did not find anything more, except the name of the person who posted the picture... All the best Olivier Edited October 30, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph corrections 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Very interesting technical drawing a bit like what Giorgio Piola does to Formula ones. I wonder who did it? by the way... Where would you say the infamous streamer is placed on this drawing ? is it over or below the steering wheel's spokes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Hi Olivier, I've always assumed this was a 60s/70s/80s illustration due to the rendering style. Again, it's probably based on the kit, but a skilled illustrator can make the kit parts far more realistic. What did get my attention when I first saw it, was the design of the brake drum backplates...I based my scratchbuilt versions on this drawing. The artist has the plates return around the edge of the drum; this was not uncommon and can be interpreted in one of the period pics (Bordini/crowd photo). It also looks far neater than the kit drums touching the back plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) Hello dear John, @vontrips The historical aspect here is interesting to me, so i beg your and everyone's pardon to indulge a bit For several reasons, i don't think this drawing was based on the kit's illustration at all. Rather, it was probably based on the same source from which Protar drew their own data to produce a simplified version to make their kit. With all the simplifications/imperfections that we know and don't know about. My guess, for what it is worth, is that someone very knowledgeable about the mechanics of racing cars like Giorgio Piola, did this technical drawing years ago for some specialized article published possibly by the Autosprint magazine or other - he does this for many F1 cars and magazines since decades; in France for Autohebdo; England for Autosport ; Italy for Autosprint etc. and he has had long time access to Fiat's & Ferrari sources. Am not building this car right now, but it would be perhaps worthwhile writing to G. Piola if really needed, he is very accessible. also, i think the strainer would logically be above the steering wheel so as to remove it quickly, although the fixing clip at the bottom of the old black & white picture says the contrary, but it could have been wrongly retouched by hand at the time, and the shadows exagerated by hand as well and on the wrong side inadvertaently by the photographer ... in any case, at the time Fiat already had a quick action removable steering wheel fixed on one nut ( the Mephisto had it ) so the strainer could also well be below the steering. In the illustration above, with so many seemingly correct details; wheel spokes, grill accuracy, drums, wires, etc. the drawing seems to tell us that the strainer is above the spokes. The Bordino picture was very likely retouched when it was developed and printed the first time. what about the ride height and your differing opinions about the exact measurements. If i am right, this car would be slightly different than the Protar, if i am wrong, then apologies and i withdraw the above. Also, i am not so sure the grill should be shorter as Hannes says ( sorry Hannes :0 ) Finally, to add credence to my theory about Giorgio Piola or other expert making this illustration, it is very unlikely that Fiat does not have a bare minimum of technical data in its archives in Turino. It is a question of accessing it. The book "The racing car - Development & Design" by Clutton, Posthumous & Jenkinson (the famous Jenks), i think first published in 1956, talks in technical details about the 806 car (but no illustrations). Such authorities on the subject must have had access to this information mentioned in their book and would have never speculated... ( unlike me here, i grant you). Cheers to all, sorry about being pedantic on history. May be am wrong, may be not. Sam if I may add a word to anyone wanting to build the car and have fun: go for it !! it is a great and beautiful car to have sitting on your shelf.. it does not have to be historically accurate or even with rivets... Olivier @Olivier de St Raph is writing for a prestigious magazine, hence his attention to historical details. Edited October 30, 2016 by sharknose156 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) Hello to all Columbo Detectives, 1) John, you knew that picture?? Are they other ones you know that are not yet on the thread? 2) Sam, I totaly agree with you about the fact that this picture was NOT made from the kit. It is IMHO much too accurate (much more than the kit as shown)... It is quite probable that this picture, through other ones, was indeed used by Protar for the conception. 3) I really can't say, on this picture, where is situated the strainer. Even if it bothers me to change one more time my steering wheel, John and Hannes have convinced me the strainer is under the spokes. I don't see on this new document what could make me change my (new) point of view. 4) Sam, you mean to say it would be possible to come in contact with G. Piola. Do you know how? It would certainly be very helpful... 5) John, I didn't understand very well what you explained about the drum brakes, I will see that again at home at leisure... All the best to all Olivier Edited October 30, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Dear Olivier @Olivier de St Raph http://www.giorgiopiola.com/ http://www.motorsportnetwork.com/contacts Good Luck Sam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Hello everybody,there´s still another drawing in the net , similar to the one,that Olivier showed us,but that´s not very helpful too.I want to comment the Picture of the Protar´s master-model.It was part of an Advertising literature,that was included the kit I bought a Long time ago.You already know the smaller black and White Version.Beeing the master-model for the kit´s Designers it surely was a very expensive and unique production of a professional model builder with all technical Support.This Picture is dangerous!Because it Shows so many fine Details(I think , it´s scale was 1:8 or 1:6)you might be tempted to take the whole car for real.Of Course it is not!The Protar Designers added more faults because some parts had to be simplified for production.A good example are the cross-struts under the engine.Anyway, some Detail are very convincing(like the steering Lever at it´s right place)so you have to decide,.which Solutions you might use for your own construction.Regarding the cooler case`s dimension I´m have reached the dimensions of a height 5,3 mm and width 3.5 mm.Pictures will follow, whe nI´m finished .Many greetings to all! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Not sure to understand, Hannes. This picture you talk about, with a 1/8 or 1/6 scale kit, is it the one you posted at 13h48? Or another one?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Dear Olivier,This model was not made from a kit, it was scratchbuildt by an Italian Artist,but is partial wrong as the kit,which was developed out of it. Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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