Hannes Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Dear sharknose, you´ll find the Pictures here on the first sides.I learned about the Monza modification just by looking at the Pictures.Regarding the wires :I don´t really know.The Mef´s spark plugs were made of tiny telescope brass tubes and brass nuts for 1´4mmscrews(not the big ones in the kit).You can buy these materials in the knupfer shop(not far away fro,m your home)One of the tubes fits through the nut,the other one does not.You must paint the somewhat wider tube with a White Color .This way you can determine the length of your spark plug and fix your wire by inserting a brass rivet into the smaller tube..I dont want to make Advertising work,but the knupfer shop has the Things you Need for both Mefistofele and 806..They have a own factory for screws bolts,nuts tubes rivets of any size and much more..Viele Grüsse in die schöne Schweiz auch von unseren Berner Sennenhund Joschi! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Hello to all, I would like to come-back on the discussions I had yesterday with my nephew Sylvain, not model maker but very competent in mechanics and with whom I spent 2 very instructive hours. In summary: 1- I ever talked about the ignition wiring with a photo and captions (sorry, in french). Sylvain considers very improbable the tubes in which would run the wires in the context of a race. The mechanic had to be able to intervene very fast in case of problem, what suggests that wires were not enclosed in tubes. 2- About the calender, he is sure it was molded in one piece which would mean that 7G and 31E should be in one piece. There would be just a painting separation (they let the calender in its juice, steel, and painted the rest of that piece). Which means that we should fill the joint between these 2 parts. This means too that the nuts on 31E sides are wrong and should be erased (what I'm gonna do). 3- About the clear screen 1 CF, he thinks it was not a plexi nor glass nor acetate screen , but a kind of mosquito net, that was very frequently used at this time. Very light, it allowed the pilot to check its bezels, as you can see through a mosquito net, and the oil projection were stopped by this stuff. That's why, on the pictures, the "screen" doesn't look clear! 4- About the wheels, he explained to me that my inside spoking was right, but not the outside . I based myself on the Italeri's and Protar spokes, just adding 2 X more, but one more time, Italeri's and Protar spoking was wrong. It's, if I understood well, a problem of angle that makes the spoke. Following him, such a wheel couldn't turn fast. Andi's wheels are good because he did not work on the kit's assumption. I precise that I won't do the re-spoking wheels again!! I have to go now, but, if I remember well, there were still one or 2 more points to precise... All the best Olivier 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 On 21/10/2016 at 4:13 PM, ptcruiser said: I think #122 would be described in the UK has a fiddle knob or steering knob. Usually found on heavier equipment or where the driver has difficulty steering which is why I always thought it strange on a race car. Like this: Not needed too much on track racing but there is a sport called Auto Testing or Driving Tests. Driving a course around cones and markers against the clock. This knob helps with the very quick steering needed. I used to use one on my 1930 Austin 7 Ulster until it nearly broke my wrist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 (edited) Thanks Black Knight for this contribution. Did the Milano G.P need such quick steering, that is the question. Anyway, I will put this knob on my Fiat as it is present on the steering wheel reference doc shown above... Edited October 24, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=354543501560284&set=ms.c.eJw9ytENACAIA9GNjJQWYf~%3BFTCT4~_XLnouhEAlHK5W03xUbZN7M8wHE92~%3Bza709~_dz~%3BjaNsF7tsWjg~-~-.bps.a.354543391560295.1073741828.100010139104923&type=3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 hello everybody here are the promised pictures from my sister´s facebook account.I am very sorry for not reachable the next days because my pc has a malfunction and will be repaired till friday.I can´t use my sister´s office pc because she needs it for working .So enjoy the pictures and I look forward to be online again next weekend! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Hello Hannes your link does not work (unavailable). Could you try to see why, please? Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 sorry,Olivier my fault,I missed to make it public. Ina- Maria 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 (edited) Hello Hannes, congratulations for this nice work. I am not yet working on the body, but I saw your comments about the insufficient lenght of the front. On the facebook photos, you seem to have taken that in consideration. How will you fill the lacks? Don't you have a problem with the frame? Isn't it too short? In other words, isn't it too difficult to make the lenght corrections? (we are used to improve details, but extending a body...) You should try to post your photos on the thread, if you don't know how to, tell us and we will explain. I am myself a quite new member and this was explained to me at the beginning (see p. 25). All the best to all P.S: if I may say so, you should try to improve a little your photos (better lightning, better resolution, enlargements...). But maybe it's due to facebook? Edited October 24, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I tried to post the Photos on the thread this afternoon ,but did not get it.It would be very nice if you could explain.My brother says, that these photos are just for information and don´t show any final state of the work on the car´s body.Of course you can discuss these questions with himself,when his pc will be fixed.But I will try to send those photos directly if you tell me,how.Many greetings to France,Ina-Maria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Dear Hannes Firstly thank you for your kind answer and clarifications. i will experiment with making a spark plug the way you described as soon as i am back home thursday. Both your Mephisto and 806 look impressive and very clean execution, well done! Probably you have good support and technical advise from Joschi to whom i send warm greetings back. Knupfer seem to have interesting supplies. Thank you for the reference. As VT ( Von Trips) would say; "they seem to have the mutts nuts" (beautiful english expressions appearing here from several) To post photos here: first upload the photo on your account at photobucket.com ( or equivalent ) and keep the picture open on your browser 's tab on another browser tab, open your Britmodeller.com forum topic and thread, and write your text which will go with the picture In the text box where you write your post, click on the right bottom box marked 'insert other media' click on 'insert image from URL' and a long box will appear. go back to your photobucket.com tab and click on the url link marked 'direct' appearing on the right side of the picture. click until it becomes yellow, copying the url go back to your Britmodeller.com tab and 'paste' the url into the long box appearing and click on "insert post" Voilà ! at least with trial and error that's how i manage to do do it... Bonne chance ! kind regards to all, including your sister who is doing a great support work. Sam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Dear Olivier, Thank you for sharing the feedback from your nephew. his comments seem plausible, including the net on the steering. On point 4 why is the wheel not fast ? is it a question of evenly distributing the axle's energy to the outer wheel ? is this why Andi's rendition is more accurate ? "In fine", as long as the number of spokes is right, i would be ok. Your choice for the steering's knob in metal is very good. i very much doubt it would be in bakelite on a racing car to be driven in anger. Best to all Sam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) Firstly, thank you to both Hannes and Ina-Maria for the pics. This has piqued my interest enough for me to open my Photoshop experiments I was playing with before I left off a few months ago. Unfortunately, I'm still having issues with my ancient MacBook and should have bought a new laptop by now, but have been getting by with just my phone! My computer no longer has an internet connection so I've had to photo this off the screen. Afraid that the quality is awful, but hopely it will explain some of my findings. This is Rich's model overlayed on the original photo. The problem with this method is getting the correct camera angle and focal length. There are other issues like lens distortion on old fashioned camera's which is difficult to reproduce; however, I think this shot is accurate enough to make a visual judgement? The problem is what you use as a datum point for lining up the pictures; for this I have lined up the wheel spinners. Immediately, you can see the body profile is far too high! However the bonnet front and rear edges roughly line up, contrary to Hannes findings. You'll notice the tail length is kind of OK too. The top of the radiator surround needs to be a couple of mm longer and I agree with Hannes, it should be wider too! Going back to my earlier post I would suggest the easy way to rectify some of this is to remove say 4mm minimum off the bottom of the body. If the radiator surround is left near its original position but lowered by 2mm the bonnet line would be more horizontal (which is a glaring difference). Really, the body needs to be even lower, but this would be a nightmare for fitting the internal componants. The chassis bend is also too sharp and in the wrong place, exhaust at the wrong height ect...these can easily be changed. That cockpit fairing needs some work too! When I get a moment I'll upload the other period shots with the overlays if it helps! John Edited October 25, 2016 by vontrips 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Hello to all, about the "screen", I found this photo: it is a splatter screen. I think it is this kind of thing Bordino had in front of him. Sam, about the spokes, I am not an expert in that sort of thing, but my nephew explained me that the angle the spokes do with the axis is too wide on my wheel, on the outside. If you go back on the Mef wheel enlargement, you will see that, indeed, the spokes don't make a so opened angle than on my wheel. That said, my Fiat will never go fast and these considerations will not prevent me from sleeping. I love my re-spoked wheels, especially with VT tyres. About that, even if this does not explain the big difference of height, take in consideration the difference of height between the 806 tyre and the Mef one. I suppose Rich model is equipped with the Mef wheel, much higher than the 806 (am I right?) Anyway, this comparison is very interesting, but I am afraid by the modifications required. This kit is so poor, so wrong, with so many defects, and we must go on anyway (I don't want to spend more than a pregnancy (9 months) to give birth to my model!! Hannes, I was about to explain you for posting photos but I see Sam made the job, thanks Sam. About the ignition wiring, I would have been pleased to have Andi's comments on its choices: indeed, my nephew explained me Andi's solutions, a big opening in 121D by which would run the wires (and little openings to decrease the weight of that piece), and then wires going to the spark plugs by the outside, in contact with the top of 30E, is very probable (you 'll have noticed that the photo I posted correponds exactly with what Andi did). Andi showed its amazing photos, but with no comments about the ignition wiring, and did not take part to our many discussions about that (tube or not? inside or outside? etc.). I think it's a pity, because Andi is not only a great artist, he is very competent too in technics and mechanics. All the best to all Olivier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 P.S: I have improved a little my previous photo about the ignition wiring (there were little mistakes). Sorry, still in french... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Olivier, Rich's kit has the Protar tyres. The ride height is the same as the original and correct. This can seen as the chassis rails overlap each other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptcruiser Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Olivier, my model is the original Protar white metal bodied kit, out of the box with no modifications. VT copied one of the tyres for his resin versions. loving this exchange Rich 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Ok Rich and John I didn't know that the Protar tyres used by John were Rich's ones. I take advantage of this to thank you, Rich, because without you (and John, of course), I would be today with Mef tyres ... So, this means that really, the body is too height. Hannes seemed to consider it too short on the front. If I understood well, the comparison does not confirm this impression. Now, what should we do? As I said in the last post, the kit is ever not easy, I am not sure I would go looking for new complications, except if one of us does the job and explains as simply as possible how to improve the body shape... All the best to all Olivier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) My plan is a compromise, rather than a redesign of the whole kit; which is the correct solution. I plan to lower the body by 3-4mm, photograph it and overlay in Photoshop again to check progress. It may need to be lower than this, but I will assess future problems before I go further. A major issue is that if the bonnet is lower, it will cause problems with the exhaust manifolds. To do the job properly the engine may have to be lowered too - which starts to become a nightmare job!!! Plus, the mount for the steering column would have to be shorter so the column is lower (more horizontal) and the steering wheel more vertical. This is a good correction though, as this is confirmed in my experiment with the rear view. I can upload it later, if it's of interest?! Edited October 25, 2016 by vontrips 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Hello everyone and thank you for your comments and help (Sam).There are new interesting questions comig up.I also consider to lower the whole body but only for 2mm.If you shorten the bodywork as I did,the height for the bonnets to start changed to an upward direction anyway,so there should be no problems with the engine´s height.Altering the seat, tank and the fixing points for the exhaust pipes are not real big problems. Remodelling the car´s tail is a challenge,but doable.Generally Iwould like to say,we all want a realistic and impressive model,but there,s no need to achieve an exact copy which also could be printed out some day.Therefore it´s important to decide ,what´s important for the final appearance and what´s not.Currently I am changing the cooler case by shortenig in the vertical direction beyond the holes for the fixing screws .It will get a wider appearance naturally and you don´t have add thick plates on both sides.I have to stop now,because Ina needs her pc.Have a good time!Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Hello to all, I have seen again this very instructive superposition between Rich kit and the picture of Bordino. I must say I am very disrupted by such a difference. Furthermore, I suppose this difference of height explains the impression of Pinocchio nose we could have seeing the original car. So, Hannes was wrong wanting to make a longer front. But I am not sure I will go on this way, I know we will still have many traps to be thwarted up to the end (several at each step) and I don't want my hobby to become a nightmare! I don't want to discourage the goodwill, but I suggest you to be very careful with the ambitious project to modify the height of the kit. Have fun! Olivier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 P.S: please, join photos and drawings to precise the modif you suggest (1 picture better than 1000 words) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 @vontrips If you or anyone in this thread would take on to perform that level of surgery on this kit, the following will happen: 1) I'll go buy a bucket of XXXL popcorn for reading purposes of this thread alone. 2) " " [beer] " ". 3) That modeler will have a (probably worldwide) unique display piece AKA show stopper. 4) That modeler will be my personal hero. If I were in that position, not only would I lower the whole body a couple of millimeters, I would also replace the bonnet pieces by thin brass ones. Otherwise the engine probably will not fit. Even after doing so, probably the engine will have to be lowered anyway. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Roy vd M. said: @vontrips If you or anyone in this thread would take on to perform that level of surgery on this kit, the following will happen: 1) I'll go buy a bucket of XXXL popcorn for reading purposes of this thread alone. 2) " " [beer] " ". 3) That modeler will have a (probably worldwide) unique display piece AKA show stopper. 4) That modeler will be my personal hero. If I were in that position, not only would I lower the whole body a couple of millimeters, I would also replace the bonnet pieces by thin brass ones. Otherwise the engine probably will not fit. Even after doing so, probably the engine will have to be lowered anyway. Almost sounds like pressure, or bribery, Roy! Stumbled upon an interesting piece of old news today on the web. Motor Sport Magazine (April 1997, page 123) announced a project was underway to recreate a Tipo 806 replica using detailed drawings from the Fiat Archive in Turin! This announcement also mentioned the start of The Beast of Turin project...I wonder if the S76 restorer knows more? May have to make some calls! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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