cngaero Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Sadly, I fear that the brown stuff is in transit through the air conditioning. I only hope that those in positions of influence can keep a cool head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddball1973 Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 I don't think those yahoo's on the ground are going to look so cocky once Putin decides to increase Russia's area of operations. Still can't work out why the F-16 pilot was given authorisation to fire, what the hell do they i.e. Turkey think they are going to achieve here? With Isis on their doorstep you'd think alienating a military super power set out to assist in the defeat of Isis would not be on the agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) This entire theatre of war was already a chaotic melting pot before NATO and the Russians began operating with their own mixed agenda`s and it is a tinderbox which could explode right across Europe if we are not careful! The UN should be sorting out the response of the outside world to the Syrian Civil War and then we can all set to against ISIS singing from the same song sheet,.....that is unless Russia uses its veto! At the moment the Russians are bombing anybody opposed to Assad including those being assisted by NATO, NATO are bombing ISIS and the countries which border the area have their own agenda`s and are supporting various different groups inside Syria to kill the people that they don`t like,...... oh dear! Apparently the Russian Combat Rescue helicopter was blown up by an American TOW missile system by a rebel group sponsored by the west,.........and for this they cannot be totally blamed seeing as the Russian`s had just been bombing them,.....however the shooting of any of the escaped aircrew is totally out of order,..... but then they are not fully trained soldiers and are probably unaware of the Geneva convention (although I definitely still don`t condone this!),.... see what I mean about confused! This is when the politicians and envoys of the world need to put their heads together and come to some sort of compromise which can bring about a plan to try to end this war and result in Syria being peaceful once more,.........big ask I know but lets hope they at least try! Cheers Tony ps- Has anybody seen the rubbish and vile being spouted out on the Airforces Monthly website about this same subject,.......WOW! Edited November 24, 2015 by tonyot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight_Flyer Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Apparantly the Sukhoi WAS in Turkish air-space... for 17 seconds (according to sky news) I've read that as well on another news site and apparently Turkey has released a copy of the radar track which appears to confirm the Su24 was well on its way to exiting out of Turkish airspace. It was also speculated that by the time the AAM had hit the Russian plane it could have occurred in Syrian airspace given the short duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I think that Tony's post above sums it up as well as any I've seen. Long story short, it would appear Turkey has become peeved with Russia for bombing Turkish backed anti Syrian Govt. rebels. Russia appear to be there to back up Assad & his chronies, strikes against Isis are at best incidental from reporting I've seen. Russia in this context have placed themselves firmly in the Assad corner so now we've a mainly triangular scrap with the Syrian Govt & Russia in one corner, Isis & its jihadist mates in another & Western backed anti Isis forces in a third. Plus of course, there are a heap of smaller factional scraps with different groups scrapping among themselves as they oppose either Isis or the Syrian Govt, or both, such a Shi-ite militias, Sunni forces & Kurdish forces, hence why there really isn't a long story short to this one. Steve. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis_C Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Turkish act was probably too hard considering just small violation of its airspace. But it demonstrated very clearly the true situation in Syria which is exactly as Steve describes with three main parties opposing each other + some smaller groups. And at this moment Isis looks to be just a reason for both Western allies and Russia to get involved in Syria. Yeah... During the cold war, Soviet Politbureau was at least clever enough not to engage directly into third world conflicts especially where the risk of direct contact with US or NATO forces was too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepureness Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 One thing that crosses my mind, do other aircraft from other countries pass through turkey on their way to bombing Syria and IS. Looking at the picture on the radar it looks like the Russian SU-24 was just "taking a short cut". Mobilizing your countries Air force to shoot down an Aircraft which is clearing leaving or left your airspace. If you take a SU-24 low level cruising speed which is around roughly around 615 kph for a time of 17 seconds, that means the Russian aircraft traveled all of 1.8 miles/2.9 kilometers across Turkish territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Hard to believe that Turkish jets were scrambled to intercept an intruding aircraft, intercepted it on a pursuit course, warned it several times and then shot it down in approximately 25 seconds. One can infer therefore that they were specifically tasked with threatening Russian aircraft cutting that particular corner of Turkish airspace (a seemingly very common occurrence which Turkey has protested already), and it has resulted in an extremely provocative action. Turkey is well known for macho, unilateral action while a NATO member. I'm personally disgusted that the US president has unequivocally backed the action, and personally dread the Russian response. This is the only aspect in this entire debacle that genuinely scares me - when political point-scoring and armchair machismo leads to direct confrontation in an instant of utter stupidity. I hope everyone manages to keep their heads and talk this one out, but I think Turkey just scored a massive own goal for NATO and its ambitions in the region. Edited November 25, 2015 by Alan P 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Well, if you have a war right in front of your door, it's not common to have some CAP. Especially when there were some incursions before. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvy5 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Turkey's revenge for the destruction of IS / ISIS convoy with petrol. But this is not way to fight the terrorists.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Sadly, the plot thickens. Russian CSAR Helo has been taken down by Syrian rebels. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621677/Reports-Russian-helicopter-shot-down-while-searching-downed-jets Such a sad day. I'll refrain from airing my own political views, but I think we can all join and spare a thought for the pilots/crew involved in both the Su-24 shootdown, and the downing of the Helo sent to rescue them. Regardless of why they were there, it's horrible to think of those poor guys being gunned down in their silks, and the Helo crew idling helplessly on the ground being taken out by a TOW. RIP. Daryl. The loss of human lives is always a tragedy and we should be all sad for this. However..... I struggle to see the difference between pilots or helicopter crews and the people they are bombing. The same pilot that is now defenceless without his shiny fighter-bomber had been dropping weapons on other combatants that were defenceless against bombs and missiles. Same for a helicopter crew, they may be defenceless at one point but they had the upper hand against their enemies only a few minutes before. Why should pilots expect to be treated better than the targets of their bombs ? Particularly in a situation like this, where violence has always been present, why should we expect a pilot to be shown more mercy than the pilots show ? Regardless of the political situation, we have people who have been at war for years and have witnessed villages destroyed by bombing and thousands of civilians killed, can we really expect them to show mercy for a pilot, even more a foreigner coming to the help of the enemy? In a country where attack helicopters have been used to crush demonstrations by unarmed protesters, can we expect a helicopter crew to be treated with kindness ? But in general, how many people would offer a cup of tea to the same persons that only 5 minutes before were busy trying to kill them ? Expecially in a situation where no mercy is given to those bombed in case of capture. I may sound cynical, but folks, this is a war and wars involve killing and the risk of being killed. Humans may have tried to romanticize war but the essence is always the same, kill and destroy until the objectives are reached. We may take part and see one's actions as good while the actions from another part are bad, but the reality is that every part will do their best to kill those on the other side. This is a grim reality that people forget too often. As aviation/military enthusiasts we should know more than others what war is like, yet even we sometime forget the basics and only look at our beloved aircrafts like a modern version of the knights in their shiny armours with all their chivarlic code while kids see footage from acquisition systems and now think of war like a big videogame. Well, the truth is very different 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Some points to note, firstly NATO is not involved in the Syrian/ISIS operations (yet, no thanks to Turkey!) although some NATO members have taken unilateral action/have got involved in a loose coalition. Secondly Turkey have a track record for attempting (and at times succeeding in) shoot downs of aircraft entering their airspace, just ask Greece, another NATO member, so no surprise there. I agree with the assessment that this is now a three way conflict so what is really needed now is some common ground for the Western and Syrian (Russian) alliances to agree on. Other than agreeing that ISIS is a target (one of many in the Syrian view) I don't see any real agreement coming soon so long as the West is adamant that Assad must go regardless. Duncan B 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Well, if you have a war right in front of your door, it's not common to have some CAP. Especially when there were some incursions before. Alex Civilised, industrial nations (e.g. NATO member states) do intercept intruders who are not actively belligerent (Russians included). But then they are shadowed or escorted until clear of sensitive areas or territory. They do not just shoot them down, especially if they are no threat to the either the interceptors or their territorial interests.This is reminiscent of the little, gobby kid in the playground picking a fight with the bully cos he knows the teachers are watching. Unfortunately Ankara has picked the wrong fight, and NATO will not welcome the added tension. I wonder if this will affect the UK's decision to commit airstrikes to Syria. It would seem ill-advised until this is resolved. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Ok, that's enough - distinctly political and lacking in consideration for the pilots who died in this incident (if that aspect has been clarified at this point). End of thread. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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