P47 Wheel bay colours.

[Tbolt]

Tbolt - hard to say too much based on those pics, old film, the contrast is a bit suspect (the red emergency panel release in the first pic is practically fluorescent when one assumes it would be standard insignia red, and the white in the names on the second is quite washed out), but if I was a betting man I would say Lt, Matthews aircraft is green zinc chromate/interior green, not raw yellow zinc chromate. The color has a yellow-green tint to be certain, but having used the real thing it really is OH MY GOD! ghastly yellow. Taking into account how washed out the name looks I am fairly certain the cockpit color has also been washed out and is appearing lighter on film than it would have been "in the aluminum".

Fair point about the two coats in areas other than the cockpit. That does seem to come down to the maker. Curtiss was known for using tinted or green zinc chromate for the second coat on interior areas (Helldiver), as did Bell with the P-39, Vought added Indian Red to YZC for the second coat of primer on the interior of early Corsairs, as we know from the wreck pulled from Lake Michigan basically the entire interior, bar the cockpit, was in "salmon" pink primer. Republic apparently opted for plain old YZC, on those areas they primed at all. The cockpit being painted some green shade, though, was common practice established by regulation and precedent. Grumman finished the interior fuselage spaces in light gray, except the cockpits which were "bronze green", later interior green. Vought used "salmon", again except the cockpit which was dull dark green. North American used dull dark green in Mustangs even as the regs stated "tinted zinc chromate" and the AAC had regulations stating Dull Dark Green was for bomber cockpits.

While of course simultaneously ignoring the fact that Martin wasn't painting most of their Marauder cockpits at all, and using green insulation blankets instead to cut glare.

I know those pictures might not be the best, but you would have to adjusted them an awful lot to get that yellow to look like tinted ZC (your welcome to have a go ).

But here is a couple more pictures and in both of these, the colour in the cockpit matches the colour on the gear doors. The third shot shows the cockpit being very light and matching the shade on the frame forward of the cockpit, which we have no reason to believe isn't ZC (yellow). The bottom picture is an example of DDG, that I came across while digging out these photos.

As for the EMM mix for tinted ZC, I read that incorrectly, it was 1 gal of ZC and 1 gal of thinners (toluene), in between that, it mentioned the enamel black but there is no quantity mentioned, again I would like to see 1946 revised manual.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Tbolt

[Seawinder]

But here is a couple more pictures and in both of these, the colour in the cockpit matches the colour on the gear doors. The third shot shows the cockpit being very light and matching the shade on the frame forward of the cockpit, which we have no reason to believe isn't ZC (yellow). The bottom picture is an example of DDG, that I came across while digging out these photos.

As for the EMM mix for tinted ZC, I read that incorrectly, it was 1 gal of ZC and 1 gal of thinners (toluene), in between that, it mentioned the enamel black but there is no quantity mentioned, again I would like to see 1946 revised manual.

IMHO, the cockpit color in this photo could be seen as not the same as the wheel wells -- looks slightly darker and greener to me -- I'd say tinted ZC.

[Tbolt]

IMHO, the cockpit color in this photo could be seen as not the same as the wheel wells -- looks slightly darker and greener to me -- I'd say tinted ZC.

If it's tinted ZC then they didn't tint it enough! It doesn't appear exactly the same shade, but slight differences can be down to weathering difference between an internal and external surface.

Anyway what it comes down to is for me there is enough evidence for making models that they used ZC in the cockpit at one point, which is why I painted my P-47D-5 cockpit ZC.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Tbolt

[GAF]

Some news about the P-47N at the Cavanaugh Flight Museum. I called to check today, and unfortunately it is "awaiting restoration", which

means it is stored away and in several pieces.

Now, being in several pieces would not be a problem. In fact, it might be even better! I doubt, however, that I could convince them to allow

me in to take pictures for modeling. I would have to make a hefty contribution to the museum for that!

Maybe another time.

Gary

[BlackSheep214]

I'm reluctant to even to rely on colorized photos of WW2 for references. A huge majority of WW2 were shot mostly in black and white. Extreme rare cases you find any in color. You can't really be 100% certain if the photos were using color film.

[bentwaters81tfw]

This is the wing at Halesworth. It came from DX for the rebuild. Apparently it was recovered from Hawaii.

[BlackSheep214]

Did they say where abouts it was recovered from? Scrapyard? Newly discovered crash site?

[Tbolt]

I'm reluctant to even to rely on colorized photos of WW2 for references. A huge majority of WW2 were shot mostly in black and white. Extreme rare cases you find any in color. You can't really be 100% certain if the photos were using color film.

This is why I like to match colours in colour photos or shades in B&W to colours that we are more sure about. But then we are not 100% sure of alot colours used in WWII and you've got to go on something - if doucumentation, black & white & colour photos isn't enough, then you are only relying on unrestored examples - that's going to heavily restrict what you can build.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Tbolt

[Tbolt]

This is the wing at Halesworth. It came from DX for the rebuild. Apparently it was recovered from Hawaii.

Interesting piece - there appears to be three different shades of ZC just on this one wing.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Tbolt

[bentwaters81tfw]

It's not recent, it's part of the amalgam of spares collected by IWM when they rebuilt their P-47, and that was a few years ago. This was declared surplus and donated to Halesworth.

[bentwaters81tfw]

Interesting piece - there appears to be three different shades of ZC just on this one wing.

As the saying goes "you had to be there". This is why I cannot understand all the arguments of what is 'the correct colour'. If you know where it was built, and what colours they used, then fine. If you don't know for sure, my guess is an 'expert' doesn't know either.

[Nick Millman]

Interesting piece - there appears to be three different shades of ZC just on this one wing.

There are four Zinc Chromate pigments and what is called simply 'Zinc Chromate' is sometimes Zinc Chromate Green. In the photo the remnants of wing surface primer (?) looks like Zinc Chromate Yellow which has darkened with exposure (typical) and in the flaps and wing fold Zinc Chromate Green which has a variegated appearance due to degradation.

Nick

[Nick Millman]

My thoughts:

Yellow Zinc Chromate (which is "raw" zinc chromate, non-tinted) is a horrible color, not something one would want to look at for long periods of time. The Navy and AAC/AAF apparently agreed, as cockpits went from "primed with YZC, then painted silver lacquer" through "primed with YZC, then painted some variety of green, often tinted ZC aka Green Zinc Chromate aka Interior Green".

YZC followed by tinted ZC is in compliance with the 1943 EMM. One of the purposes of tinting YZC, aside from the desire to prevent the pilot from expectorating similarly-colored liquids on long flights due to the color, was to ensure coverage/show that the second coat was applied. Spray YZC, throw in a touch of lampblack or black lacquer, respray and you can see what you are covering with the second coat as well as show to the inspector that, indeed, a second coat has been applied.

The formula in the 1945 EMM (a mix which I have heard was dictated to Republic earlier than 1945) is pretty clearly a typo. A 50-50 mix of black and YZC is going to give you a very dark green, far darker than standard tinted zinc chromate/interior green which is roughly FS34151. The normal mix quoted elsewhere by the USAAC/USAAF manuals or maker's manuals is 10 parts YZC 1 part black. Perhaps if Republic followed the 50-50 mix ratio, that would explain the color their cockpits ended up.

Black cockpits on P-47N, I have been told, was a post-war issue, Ns sent through rework before being given to ANG units had their cockpits repainted in black. This apparently was standard on ANG P-51Hs that had been through rework as well.

There is a difference between the original tinted ZC and the later ANA interior green. Whilst it is true that interior green is close to FS 34151 the original formula for tinted ZC produces (unsurprisingly) a lighter yellowish green colour that is approximately between FS 14257 and 14255. The Curtiss interior colour used in the P-36 and early P-40 variants was similar to this but slightly yellower.

Also Zinc Chromate Yellow typically becomes darker and browner with exposure. It only tends to be a very bright yellow when first applied and gradually dulls down towards a yellow ochre appearance unless protected from the atmosphere.

FWIW the cockpit photographs in post # 24 look like untinted Zinc Chromate Yellow.

There was probably inconsistency in interior and protective applications during wartime production.

Nick

[Tbolt]

There are four Zinc Chromate pigments and what is called simply 'Zinc Chromate' is sometimes Zinc Chromate Green. In the photo the remnants of wing surface primer (?) looks like Zinc Chromate Yellow which has darkened with exposure (typical) and in the flaps and wing fold Zinc Chromate Green which has a variegated appearance due to degradation.

Nick

Four pigments, that's interesting, I've seen slightly different shades of ZC, but never realized there was four separate pigments and obviously lots of shades of tinted ZC as they vary a lot from a light green to a dark green.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Tbolt

[Nick Millman]

Four pigments, that's interesting, I've seen slightly different shades of ZC, but never realized there was four separate pigments and obviously lots of shades of tinted ZC as they vary a lot from a light green to a dark green.

Zinc dichromate hydrate, zinc potassium chromate hydrate of approximate composition, a sodium analogue version of that and zinc chromate hydroxide. Zinc potassium chromate is also divided commercially into two groups, Type I and II. There are three separate categories as Pigment Yellow in the Colour Index (CI). Zinc chromate is also called zinc chrome and zinc yellow, the latter term in common use by the belligerents during WW2 which has probably contributed to the erroneous belief that only the USA used zinc chromate in aircraft production. In fact it has been known since 1860 but zinc chromate hydroxide was only patented in 1941. Its value as an anti-corrosive treatment was enhanced by the introduction of light metals for aircraft.

There are probably many more modern varieties reflecting different proprietary formulae using other ingredients which are simply called 'Zinc Chromate' as a generic term.

Colour shade will depend on the type of original pigment and manufacturing process and the tinted variety will invariably show variance in batch, partly because of the type of pigment used and partly because of minor ratio differences during manufacture. Light and dark appearance can also be the result of exposure and degradation following application, again dependent on the original pigment formula and application methods.

Nick

[Mike Starmer]

Also Zinc Chromate Yellow typically becomes darker and browner with exposure. It only tends to be a very bright yellow when first applied and gradually dulls down towards a yellow ochre appearance unless protected from the atmosphere. I noticed this when I worked at Sywell refurbishing Valettas and Varsitys. One point, the zinc chromate on the rear armour in P-47s may only be on that section, otherwise Dull dark green on the rest. Wasn't it a pre-painted item and then installed later?

[Tbolt]

Also Zinc Chromate Yellow typically becomes darker and browner with exposure. It only tends to be a very bright yellow when first applied and gradually dulls down towards a yellow ochre appearance unless protected from the atmosphere. I noticed this when I worked at Sywell refurbishing Valettas and Varsitys. One point, the zinc chromate on the rear armour in P-47s may only be on that section, otherwise Dull dark green on the rest. Wasn't it a pre-painted item and then installed later?

I doubt that first P-47 had a DDG cockpit - it's a P-47C and I've seen no evidence that they used DDG in the cockpit. The second is an early P-47D and most likely wasn't DDG either. As for the rear armour being painted different to the rest of the cockpit, it's possible though I've seen no of evidence of this.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Tbolt

[Texan76]

Thought I would add to this debate. I'm researching for the Tamiya P-47D Bubbletop kit I have. Here is a link to the 360 cockpit of the P-47D at the United States Air Force Museum. The color seems to be Zinc Chromate to my eye, and also appears to be the original color and not repainted in restoration. This also matches the kit instructions to paint the cockpit yellow-green (Tamiya's version of zinc chromate). This color is nowhere near the shade of the above discussed "Dull Dark Green".

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/media/028/P-47D%20Cockpit.html

Edited January 16, 2016 by Texan76

[Nick Millman]

Thought I would add to this debate. I'm researching for the Tamiya P-47D Bubbletop kit I have. Here is a link to the 360 cockpit of the P-47D at the United States Air Force Museum. The color seems to be Zinc Chromate to my eye, and also appears to be the original color and not repainted in restoration. This also matches the kit instructions to paint the cockpit yellow-green (Tamiya's version of zinc chromate). This color is nowhere near the shade of the above discussed "Dull Dark Green".

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/media/028/P-47D%20Cockpit.html

IMHO not the original colour but looks like more recent zinc chromate crudely painted over a previous darker olive green paint still visible in a few places. Very nice display though, thank you for posting the link.

Nick

[Tbolt]

Thought I would add to this debate. I'm researching for the Tamiya P-47D Bubbletop kit I have. Here is a link to the 360 cockpit of the P-47D at the United States Air Force Museum. The color seems to be Zinc Chromate to my eye, and also appears to be the original color and not repainted in restoration. This also matches the kit instructions to paint the cockpit yellow-green (Tamiya's version of zinc chromate). This color is nowhere near the shade of the above discussed "Dull Dark Green".

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/media/028/P-47D%20Cockpit.html

Some of it appears to be ZC and some tinted ZC, or certainly different batch ZC's, but like Nick says you can see where it has been over painted. You can see below the R/T set (below the Oxygen regulator) where the green is a lot darker, also underneath the hydraulic pipes below that. Also plenty like that on the right hand side, you can even see where they have used a brush.

Though it is hard to tell if the dark green is a darker tinted ZC or is a DDG.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Tbolt

[greatgonzo]

This aircraft started her career in Peru. She was displayed there after years of service. Than she went through confirmed restorations, changing owners and the ways she was used. Had even a racing incident for a while. And in the end she is displayed in Dayton disguised as another aircraft of the different block of production. It is impossible to imagine she never went through cockpit restoration. It is unseen on displayed aircraft unless they were dug out of some swamp.