Slater Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 There's been a lot of discussion on this topic. In this case, would the UK go for the cheaper option? http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense-news/2015/11/09/lockheed-pitches-c-130-uk-alternative-p-8/75460480/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 More than likely yes,..........although I hope they don`t! Personally I think that the RAF should be ordering more transport Herk`s as the new Atlas thing is too large for tactical ops and apparently the current British low level parachute is incompatible with the Atlas,......a bit inconvenient if you need to drop a battalion into Africa at short notice! Since the `legacy' Herk was retired Airborne support operations have been woefully underrated by the RAF,.....especially considering that this method of entry into a war zone is supposed to be the spearhead of the British Army`s main `out of area' unit 16 Air Assault Bde. As for the P-8,.....I`m not certain that it is the right aircraft either,.....but there isn`t much of an option apart from reconditioned Orion`s is there? I`d prefer reconditioned Orion`s myself and after all we are in the process of receiving 50 plus year old C-135 airframes for 51 Sqn aren`t we so should this matter? Whatever we buy it will have to be American as we appear to be operating as an arm of the US Armed Forces anyway nowadays, Cheers Tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 I'm guessing that a MPA-modified Atlas would be as expensive as a P-8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 What about the Japanese jobby? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorth Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 What about the Japanese jobby? I'm curious about that myself. I honestly don't see where the advantage of the P-8 or maritime C-130 are. Both, regardless of version are old designs at heart and refitted from their original intended roles. In a way, it would make the folly of cancelling the Nimrod all that much more pronounced by taking either of them. The Japanese alternative is at least a new design and ASW from the ground up. Regards the C-130 specifically; considering the demands on the type for transport these days, using it as a wrapper for an ASW suite would be a ridiculous waste of the resource. Having ridden in the back of a Hercules once, I can't imagine how you could ever make it ergonomic enough for those long patrol missions. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 When the MRA4 was cancelled I jokingly suggested that the RAF use Hercs and binoculars!! Bring back Shackletons, at least they had 20mm cannon in the nose for scaring fishing boats with (and a proper bomb bay). Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 When the MRA4 was cancelled I jokingly suggested that the RAF use Hercs and binoculars!! Binoculars as well? Going for the gold-plated solution, I see. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The RAF has used Hercs for such patrols, totally unmodified. When the Russians were in a good mood they would slow down their Tu-95's to allow Fat Albert to catch up.......... Trevor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Both, regardless of version are old designs at heart and refitted from their original intended roles. In a way, it would make the folly of cancelling the Nimrod all that much more pronounced by taking either of them. By that yardstick the Nimrod was only a refitted Comet and so just as bad as those options would be. Or ... not. The P-8 may be based on an airframe whose origins can be traced back to the 1960s but it's not actually a 1960s design, as many, many very happy airlines will testify. Plus any that anyone buys will be new-built. Whereas the Nimrod MRA.Mk.4 would have been genuinely old, as a good deal of its airframe was to be reused with new bits hung off it. Plus, of course, its source was older than the P-8's and the C-130's. The number of genuinely custom-made maritime patrol aircraft is strikingly small. The Atlantic, the Neptune, the Shackleton (just about) and carrier-borne aircraft like the Viking are about it. If being derived from an airliner design was a problem, the P-3 and the Nimrod and the Argus would all have been failures. A couple of countries have used C-130s as patrol aircraft - Portugal springs to mind. It doesn't last and either they give up on the role or they buy almost anything better, including old refitted P-3s. Again, Portugal springs to mind. The design simply isn't suitable* and is, as upnorth says, a waste when you don't have enough of them. My guess is that the P-1 can't be viable because Japanese procurement practice makes their gear ruinously expensive. We'd need to buy a hundred to make the unit price workable. If we get anything it will be the P-8. I'm still intrigued by the idea that we might once have bought Be-200s ... * though not because of vibration. Shackleton, anyone ... ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 Wonder how India is liking their new P-8I's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Hasn't Australia ordered some as well? Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascoteer Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 More than likely yes,..........although I hope they don`t! Still having a pop at the RAF then Tony? It's getting a tad boring. It was the MOD that insisted that 30 C130J could do the work of 60+ C130K. As someone who has flown in both the Maritime and Transport roles and as someone who has done Maritime in both C130 and Nimrod I can tell you that C130 is not the panacea that you might think. A dedicated MPA is required. However, in my view P8 is a bucket of compromise; indeed an expensive compromise with a series of severe limitations. While it might make a good MMA, as a MPA it has several problems. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 After the debacle with the Military Aviation Authority over the service history of the RAF's RC-135s, I think the likelihood of second hand P-3s has only slightly more chance than the Hendon and Duxford Sunderlands being returned to service. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Still having a pop at the RAF then Tony? It's getting a tad boring sunshine. Sorry if you think I`m having a pop at the RAF and I wasn`t aware that it was a long standing fault of mine because I don`t hold any malice to the service in general and in fact I loved working alongside the RAF on the many occasions that I was able to do so,.....my favourite posting ever was even to an RAF station! In this case (and probably any other `pops' that I`ve made?) ,.....it isn`t the entire RAF that I may be criticising ,..but it does feel as if there are some up in high places within the RAF who think that everything revolves around fast jets and that other roles, especially those supporting the Navy and Army are just not worth the hassle (maritime especially,..Army not so much, probably because Iraq and Afghanistan have been so `centric; and high profile, although tactical fixed wing transport is questionable), yet they cling onto these roles because they appear to be scared of losing them,.....it must stem back to the 1920`s when the RAF was in danger of being taken over again by the RN & Army which just isn`t going to happen in this day and age! I do feel that the Fleet Air Arm fixed wing element was also killed off in a long running and well planned campaign by high ranking RAF officers in the MoD who felt that they alone deserved to fly fast jets,....but outside of those insecure people with egg on their hats I do actually love the RAF! Procurement,.....well I blame the MoD, nuff said there and I actually agree with everything that you say regarding the P-8! Cheers Tony PS,......Please don`t call me sunshine,....love! Edited November 11, 2015 by tonyot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magwitch Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Wonder how India is liking their new P-8I's? They've decided to exercise their option for another four so they are probably favourably disposed toward it. They obviously neglected to read this forum before making their MPA/MMA decisions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albeback52 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 It was the MOD that insisted that 30 C130J could do the work of 60+ C130K. That is the standard excuse (Of course we are only buying 20 Scruggs Wundaplanes but, they can do the same job as the 60 Fairey Farcicals that they are replacing!) that politicians and officials give when questioned about reduced procurement. However, I would treat all such claims with a healthy degree of cynicism and even more scepticism because, no matter how good it is, an aeroplane/ship/tank etc can only ever be in one place at one time! In any case, cheapest is seldom (if ever) best. Add to which, the remaining RAF Hercs must by now be seriously tired aeroplanes with all the additional maintenance issues/costs that will entail. Didn't Airbus propose a MPA/MMA at one time - based on the A321/320? Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Foster60 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I have heard they have found the perfect cost effective solution. The MOD civilan who thou​ght of it is in line for a gong in the new years honours list. They are going to post men with hang gliders on cliffs around the country on the coast and issue each man with two hand grenades . Who needs to spend £20Bn? Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I have heard they have found the perfect cost effective solution. The MOD civilan who thou​ght of it is in line for a gong in the new years honours list. They are going to post men with hang gliders on cliffs around the country on the coast and issue each man with two hand grenades . Who needs to spend £20Bn? Nigel Sorry Nigel but you have got it all wrong,........it is paragliders with the bloke wearing an engine pack on his back to give extended range and it is 4 hand grenades plus a spud gun! Those based in Scotland are provided with an extra woolly jumper and the parachute is blue with diagonal white crosses on it to keep the locals happy! Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Foster60 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Hi Tony, I think you might be having jest, please, pull up a sandbag and lets talk about it! Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Hi Tony, I think you might be having jest, please, pull up a sandbag and lets talk about it! Nigel Sure am Nigel,......but maybe our solutions might be a bit too high tech? Then again,...they are better than what we have at the moment aren`t they! Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Do we have any potatoes to spare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Difficult to see where an acceptable solution for the MPA role will come from if the P8 doesn't fill all the requirements (I'll not argue that it does anyway as I've always had my doubts but think that it is better than nothing/Hercs). I think the most likely outcome will be similar to the 1920's 10 year rule where no perceived threat is expected so ignore our requirement on an ongoing basis until we get caught out. Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 RAF personnel are already embedded with P-8 crews to keep maritime currency, so there is a nucleus of rated crew available. It can only be a matter of time before we acquire (too few) of the type. Will we lease them like we did initially with the C-17's before realising that an outright purchase would suit our requirements better? Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLC1966 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Personally I think that the RAF should be ordering more transport Herk`s as the new Atlas thing is too large for tactical ops and apparently the current British low level parachute is incompatible with the Atlas,......a bit inconvenient if you need to drop a battalion into Africa at short notice! So we are going to build a defence policy, and a massive chunk of money we haven't got, for the Air Environment around the premise we are going to be lobbing a battalion of troops into Africa...just how many times have we done that since Suez ? Other than SF it ain't gonna happen. As for the P-8,.....I`m not certain that it is the right aircraft either,.....but there isn`t much of an option apart from reconditioned Orion`s is there? I am not 1000% the P-8 is the way ahead, however, if the choice is that, P-3's or Alberts there really is no choice (not forgetting the P-1 obviously). The P-8 is the starting point for a MMA of the future. And lets be honest, after the Nimrod carve up, BAe are not going to have a punt at coming up with something different. I`d prefer reconditioned Orion`s myself and after all we are in the process of receiving 50 plus year old C-135 airframes for 51 Sqn aren`t we so should this matter? Whatever we buy it will have to be American as we appear to be operating as an arm of the US Armed Forces anyway nowadays, We have to buy from somewhere, I suggest there is little appetite to design and build our own MPA from the MoD or from our own industry, sorry, we ain't got an Industry have we, BAe is very much international nowadays. As for the Rivet Joints, I think the re-lifed frames which will go through 4th line servicing along with the US Jets, getting the appropriate system upgrades is a decent deal I'm guessing that a MPA-modified Atlas would be as expensive as a P-8? More expensive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Perhaps we will go down the time honoured road and convert some ex BA airframes, or buy some off Ryaniar ..too expensive Easy Jet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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